Networking vs Community vs Technology with April Clarke

In this conversation, Melissa Halpin and April Clarke explore the significance of community in personal and professional life. They discuss the importance of supportive networks, the challenges of motherhood, and the need for intentionality in building communities that foster belonging. The dialogue also touches on the impact of technology on community interactions and the value of authenticity in digital spaces. 

They explore the importance of finding community, embracing authenticity, and standing firm in one's values and discuss the challenges of leadership, the power of voice in advocacy, and the significance of creating inclusive spaces that celebrate diversity. The dialogue emphasizes personal growth, the courage to be disliked, and the ongoing conversation around diversity, equity, and inclusion.

• Bootstrapping your life means recognizing the need for community support.
• True community is a mutualistic space where everyone gives and receives.
• Shopping for the right community is essential for personal growth.
• Community support can come from unexpected places, including mentors and peers.
• Finding groups that resonate with your life stage is crucial for support.
• Mothers need spaces to share their experiences and challenges.
• Balancing societal expectations with personal values is a common struggle.

You can find April Clarke here:

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprilclarkemba/

Her Business: https://xpresstransportation.com/

Her Non-profit: https://centerorganization.org/

Take Action Now!
Learn more about The Kindling Project at our website and join our Facebook group for women looking for that extra kindling to start their next big fire!

Contact us via email at podcast@thekindlingproject.com for further inquiries or discussions.

Transcript

Melissa Halpin (00:01.962)
Hi and welcome back to the Kindling Project podcast. My guest today is April Clark. She's the co-founder of Express Transportation. She's the leader of Center Organization and she's an entrepreneur, a community advocate, and she's the current president of EO Detroit Chapter. Hi April, welcome.

April Clarke (00:21.358)
Hi there, Melissa, how are you?

Melissa Halpin (00:24.202)
I'm good, I'm good. I'm so excited to see you twice in a month. Yeah, I'll take anything we can get.

April Clarke (00:28.046)
Me too, me too. That is so true. I love you. Thank you.

Melissa Halpin (00:34.792)
Yeah, I love you too. I met April, I did a year with EO's organization. have a leadership training program called EOA and she was my business coach. And she's just a phenomenal entrepreneur and human being. And what she and I most connected on was community. This is sort of, you know, where our hearts connect, what we both really care about.

She attended the Kindling Projects event a year and a half ago, and she's been a supporter of the Kindling Project. And she herself is doing a lot of public conversations around community building. And I think we both know how important that is right now. So let's start there.

April Clarke (01:19.31)
That's right. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Let's start there.

Melissa Halpin (01:25.972)
So you're kind of putting yourself out there more than I'm used to. How does that feel? How does that feel using social media and podcasts and these live conversations to promote community?

April Clarke (01:40.566)
Yeah, yeah. So I always say that I have this term called bootstrapping your life. And we kind of go through life as the lone ranger, thinking that our independence is what's going to get us from point A to point B. But we often find along the way that asking for help, the need for help, is not a bad thing. So.

Not looking at my life as this individualistic thing, knowing that the only way I can succeed, the only way I can feel true contentment is by having the supportive community. So that's been prevalent in my life, my entire life. I'm more so aware of it than now, or right now than ever. And so I really want to continue to build true community, because I believe true community is not necessarily just a network.

but it's this mutualistic space where everybody expects to both receive and give. And so I just want to share that, continue to grow a true community for myself and hopefully be a true community partner to someone else and other people. And really talk about how important it is and how people can find, again, success and contentment within strong communities.

Melissa Halpin (03:03.636)
I really love that and I agree with that. And in my experience, you have to shop. You have to do some shopping for the community that resonates with you. And it's okay. And it's okay to try different things. And then, you know, where I arrived is I'm gonna build the one that I need for me because I spent some time in...

several business accelerator communities and entrepreneur communities and women's communities and wellness communities and when you do that sort of shopping i guess it's sort of like your bootstrapping idea of you when you really take your life on of you know what do i need sometimes it's not there and you have to build it

April Clarke (03:49.678)
You have to build it, you have to shop for it. I always say, you can have so many networks, right? You can have so many spaces where there's an exchange of some sort, like a business network, can go and exchange some business cards, get some names, you put that in your back pocket, and when you need a resource or a lead, sometimes you can tap into those people that you meet. But true community allows you to be fully supported.

Melissa Halpin (03:55.764)
Right.

April Clarke (04:18.37)
And not every community can be a strong network, but not every network can be your community. So I think it's smart to be aware of the difference so that you can do the shopping and you can define what it is, what values you want to put forth so that you can find that space that truly meets all of your needs.

Melissa Halpin (04:32.148)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Halpin (04:44.138)
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's different at different stages of your life. And I think it's different for men and women. And of course, there's differences in culture, right? And upbringing. And all the different strata of life will help determine where you fit. So what is it that you feel? Can you share with me some of the kinds of community that you've experienced and what worked and what didn't work?

April Clarke (04:56.063)
Thank you.

Melissa Halpin (05:13.502)
you what you're seeking or building now.

April Clarke (05:16.346)
yes, just looking at the various stages of my life. When I was younger, my community included my home, my neighborhood, my church community.

And those spaces supported me, like even though there were things that were going on in my home at the time we grew up really, really poor, you know, my father was an alcoholic. I had the strength of my mother to support me. So my mother was my strongest community support, so to speak. And I had the support of siblings, but again, also the support of our church and, you know, the, you know, our neighbors and our friends in our, in our neighborhood. So.

Melissa Halpin (05:49.098)
Mm-hmm.

April Clarke (06:01.536)
So that was my community. My community also consisted of people that took an interest in me.

and the schools that I went to. And actually it was because of the interest that a particular principal had in me that I actually got the opportunity to even go to college. You know, that principal thought, you know, that I, you know, I had some moxie, I had strong opinions, I really cared about my education. You know, as a young middle schooler actually going into his office on a regular basis telling him what I expected in my education and what I was not getting. And so he now says...

Melissa Halpin (06:36.37)
can see that in Little April.

April Clarke (06:38.19)
Right. You know, I sent up my complaints about what I expected from my teachers, but he saw that I had drive. But what he also saw was that I would not be able to get to the next stage in my life if I did not have a bit of support. Because like I said, we did not have the financial means for school. So he nominated me for a scholarship. made

Melissa Halpin (06:48.873)
Yeah.

April Clarke (07:05.556)
met the criteria and I got a full ride to the University of Michigan. And this was something that happened when I was a young person. I just needed to make these goals in order to qualify to get that scholarship for school. So I think sometimes you have the support of angels, but those angels are part of my community. I don't ignore those angels as being definite parts of my community.

Melissa Halpin (07:25.192)
Yes, right.

April Clarke (07:34.744)
So I think it starts there, recognizing that community support is not always so direct. It's not about simply, you know, joining an organization to get the community support. It's really recognizing where you have support and being able to tap into it. And then having similar support systems, again, my entire life through college is finding the right networks of folks that, like you said, meet, you know, a cultural fit or meet that stage of my life in that moment.

As an adult, and as I grew to eventually get married, have kids, is finding mom groups, and that's so important. Finding people who understand, again, that stage, understand what it feels to be a working mom, what it feels to be a woman who has these great ambitions, but also is struggling with the societal pressure and the internal pressure from meeting a truly

co-created obligation to child rearing, right? Because I look at child rearing as it's not just me, it's all of us in the community to have a responsibility in raising these families and these children. But of course, society says, your mother says that it's all one you. And so that's not true.

Melissa Halpin (08:36.682)
Bye.

Melissa Halpin (08:45.652)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (08:57.33)
Right. Yeah.

April Clarke (09:03.128)
but it's what we're conditioned to believe. So that for me is where the struggle comes from. It's not a real balance. Doesn't make any sense because what I'm trying to balance is really societal expectations and a fear that I'm not meeting these expectations. And I say, you know, as a mom, finding mom's groups and being able to talk about this, being able to be open about this, but also,

Melissa Halpin (09:28.094)
Yeah. Yeah.

April Clarke (09:32.408)
being in a space where we can both talk about and potentially meet one another's needs. So I always like the idea of like, you when you hear someone say, I met someone and you know, we clicked and you know, I feel comfortable enough with leaving my kids and going for a night out somewhere with my husband. That's beautiful. Because when you can find someone to help you juggle the balls, I always say in true community, you can.

you can drop balls and there should be somebody else to pick them up for you and that should be okay.

Melissa Halpin (10:09.258)
Absolutely. know, one thing that I, you know, I have a lot of similarities with your journey. And one thing I thought of when I got, when my kids got a little older and I started joining entrepreneur groups and, you know, career oriented groups, that those groups often bring in an expert, right? Somebody who has a successful business or somebody who successfully exited.

And I would think back to those mom groups and I was like, the mom groups need to get somebody who's a couple rungs up the ladder to come in and tell you like when you're all in the trenches and you're all in shock like with the baby or with the loneliness or with the nursing or the postpartum or whatever it is, like to model for you that you're going to get through this. Because I do feel when I look back on my mom's groups,

April Clarke (10:50.998)
All right,

April Clarke (11:02.35)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Halpin (11:06.57)
It was like a survivor's network a lot. I mean, we would just get there and it would be like, we're all just in this state of so many of us that went to college and we're told you can have it all and we were trying to have a career and then we were trying to have a marriage and then we were trying to have a baby and all those things just all piled on top of each other. There's like this period of time where you're like,

April Clarke (11:10.626)
more.

April Clarke (11:15.726)
you

Melissa Halpin (11:31.828)
There's no such thing as having it all. can't even, like, are my clothes on inside out today? What?

April Clarke (11:38.312)
Exactly. You're barely awake. It's true.

Melissa Halpin (11:43.306)
Right. Like, what was this terrible lie that somebody fed me? That, yeah.

April Clarke (11:48.47)
Yeah, it's true. It's so true. But even that spirit of like being in a bond where everyone understands what's happening and how you're feeling so that when you bring your frustration to the table, no one's discounting you. No one's questioning you. People understand you and you feel seen and you feel, you know, it's like when you're

Melissa Halpin (11:58.227)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (12:06.15)
Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

April Clarke (12:15.096)
when you bring home the newborn and everyone in your house is just like, all you gotta do is sleep when the baby's sleeping. And it was like, it's not even realistic. It's, you have

Melissa Halpin (12:26.378)
Right, When this baby finally falls asleep, I might get a shower for the first time in four days. Right.

April Clarke (12:31.47)
Exactly. So it's like being able to voice that frustration about how unrealistic that is. That's only something you can do with people who are in your position. So even that is a big help.

Melissa Halpin (12:49.034)
Yeah, yeah. Looking around, having somebody hold a mirror up to you and be like, yeah, I get it. I see you. Yeah.

April Clarke (12:50.358)
Yeah, so yeah.

April Clarke (12:56.77)
Yeah, yeah, and that's the power of community. One, being able to show up as yourself without judgment, and then two, to get some type of support that you really need.

Melissa Halpin (13:11.668)
So you and I both, I think I might be a little bit ahead of you, but I have a 16 and a 20 year old. And you've got teenagers and a little one, right?

April Clarke (13:20.962)
Yeah, I got a 115 year old and soon to be 16 at the end of this year. She has a ways to go. And then I have my nine year old, but I also have a five year old.

Melissa Halpin (13:31.294)
Yeah, so you have that widespread there that you're still kind of elementary, middle, and high school all at the same time. But you're doing a bunch of other things. You're juggling all the balls, right? You're running a business. I believe you run that business with your husband. You're on a nonprofit. You're building small communities. We have a friend group that we're doing dinner with now.

April Clarke (13:39.81)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (14:01.17)
approaching building communities yourself now, for yourself.

April Clarke (14:06.382)
Oh, wow. So I think for me, it's funny, I turned 45 and as I get older, I get more grounded. You know, I feel like I love myself so much and I'm so much more aware of who I am and what my values are. So I think it starts with understanding.

Melissa Halpin (14:15.625)
Yeah.

April Clarke (14:28.108)
what you want, but also what your values are. Something I'm teaching my kids. In order to be in spaces that totally support you, you have to understand yourself enough to know what you're gonna accept from these spaces and what you want from these spaces and how you wanna show up to these spaces. So understanding your values is extremely important. It's hard to really get there when you're a teenager.

Melissa Halpin (14:34.494)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (14:45.438)
Mm-hmm.

April Clarke (14:57.454)
or maybe in your early 20s, but I feel like at 45, I kind of know what I want. Not kind of, I know what I want, what I'll accept, how I'll show up. So it starts there. I'm like this open space. I want to attract all the like, all of the people. I want to be as open as possible to attracting people who I can support and who will support me.

Melissa Halpin (14:57.631)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (15:11.082)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Halpin (15:17.226)
you

April Clarke (15:25.838)
So I have no parameters on number. I do have parameters on the quality of my relationships. So again, knowing what I want upfront, knowing what I value. The one value that I have is to be able to show up as myself, fully myself, and know that in those spaces, I'm completely accepted, not tolerated. People are willing to understand me.

Melissa Halpin (15:25.972)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Halpin (15:32.766)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (15:43.06)
Yeah.

April Clarke (15:55.702)
willing to get to know me and nothing about who I am makes them uncomfortable. So as a primary thing, if you know that's if that's present, then that's not my space. So that's how. Is very, very hard.

Melissa Halpin (16:09.29)
That's a lot harder than it sounds in my experience. Yeah. And I personally kind of toggle these two values that can bump up against each other because I do really value diversity and representation. And at the same time, feeling safe and feeling reflected and feeling seen, these two things, I think,

April Clarke (16:36.205)
for it.

Melissa Halpin (16:40.042)
now maybe more than ever, they really can rub up against each other. We're in just a political and social and cultural climate right now that feels like retroactive to me. Feels like it's very volatile and going backwards and safety and security are more important than they ever were. And then where does that rub up against tolerance and acceptance and

diversity. How do you balance that?

April Clarke (17:13.434)
wow, it's interesting. don't know if I can consider it a balance. You know, it needs to be what it needs to be for me because...

You know, I've definitely been in spaces where I felt tolerated. I've definitely been in spaces where I felt excluded. I've been, I've felt that way in many, different spaces, places where I've lived, you know, in school at times, in workplaces. So again, at 45, I just can't tolerate that for myself. And I don't want to be an example of that for my...

Melissa Halpin (17:49.695)
Right.

April Clarke (17:53.41)
I want them to feel as if, you know, I definitely don't want them to feel the noise of what's going on in our society right now. But I want them to feel as if, you know, they can choose what spaces, you know, they encounter and accept those spaces that are fully accepting of them, fully inclusive, fully intentional about...

Melissa Halpin (18:04.787)
Mm-hmm.

April Clarke (18:19.246)
because I think in our society you can't just say, we all belong. You have to like really be conscientious about it and very intentional about it. So for me, it's not a balance of, know, nothing is rubbing up against anything for me. I can't be in spaces where I don't fully belong.

Melissa Halpin (18:41.588)
Yeah, that's really wise. Yeah.

April Clarke (18:45.69)
yeah. And that's the thing. I mean, for me, it's, where am I finding contentment? Right. I can't completely be in contentment in spaces that are not inclusive because those spaces aren't fully supporting me anyway, if they're not inclusive. And those are those true community spaces. And going back to what I said, network versus community.

Melissa Halpin (19:00.99)
Right.

April Clarke (19:14.356)
If the space is a network and I'm not expecting anything else, you know, full community support, you know, if it's just a networking group, I'm exchanging business cards, you know, I'm not expecting much. But if it's a community space, then I'm expecting full inclusion, full belonging.

Melissa Halpin (19:22.515)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (19:30.495)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (19:34.558)
Right. Yeah. I guess that's a nice sort of way of categorizing. I'm going to have a different standard for different types of spaces. And then just accepting that maybe a larger network space, maybe a neighborhood space, or a space that's not really curated is not going to necessarily take all your boxes for true community.

April Clarke (19:57.962)
Exactly, exactly. And that's okay. I mean, that's how we're already set up as a society. You're not going to get everything from every space, but I think setting expectations for what you want up front is smart so that, you know, honestly, you're not left brokenhearted. So, yeah.

Melissa Halpin (20:15.434)
Yeah. Maybe it seems a little naive or a little Pollyanna-ish, but when I was 45, which is about six, seven years ago, I think I had this idealism that we could transform those public spaces and those network spaces to maybe meet some of these higher bars of community. And in recent years, I am moving.

towards what you're describing of, no, no, no, I'm gonna build really intentional, conscious communities where I feel safe. I'm gonna build them or I'm gonna belong to them and I'm just gonna let go of those expectations of the larger spaces. So maybe that's what I was trying to describe is that I've had some letting go of expectations of what interactions can look like, you know, in the town hall, if you will.

April Clarke (21:08.77)
Yeah, sure.

April Clarke (21:13.102)
No, really, it's something to consider because, true belonging in a society that has evolved in the way ours has, because of our history, we have to be intentional about creating belonging. And it's not easy for everyone. And it's not top of mind for everyone. And I also say that, you know, everyone doesn't know how to do it.

Melissa Halpin (21:26.036)
Right.

April Clarke (21:41.164)
Because one of the things to be intentional about belonging, you have to be, want to have one certain kinds of conversations or difficult conversations. You have to want to care about differences. Not everyone acknowledges differences or wants to acknowledge differences. Because you can't invite someone to the table without fully understanding that person. And so, again, if there's not that intentionality behind.

behind it, those spaces don't wind up being so welcoming. On that personal level, you have to go to the places that are intent on that. Again, like your specific stage in life or the good cultural fit, that kind of thing. Yeah, so it makes sense.

Melissa Halpin (22:30.826)
Absolutely. And then we have this other layer that we are navigating, which is technology. You know, we have this whole other space. We're recording this podcast today. We're looking at each other through a software. Other people will engage in this, you know, through their phones and through their car speaker or, you know, as a blog post. And so

How do you see that transforming community, that new place of meeting where are we meeting? I sometimes have this feeling, even though I've become more and more a digital creator, on top of working in marketing and creating digital assets for brands, now through the Kindling Project, I'm creating digital spaces for conversations. Are they spaces? I mean, we travel to them by ourselves.

And weirdly often we interact with people, it feels like we're interacting with them by listening to their conversations or their content, but we're at home on the sofa in our sweatpants by ourselves. So what are your thoughts on that kind of community space?

April Clarke (23:47.65)
I think online communities, whether they be designed as communities, forums, Facebook groups, they can be communities, although some actually truly fail at creating community, right?

I feel like again, there's the mutualistic aspect to community where again, we're showing up for each other, but there's also that true vulnerability and an honesty that has to be there as well. And with a lot of what's happening, it's funny that you mentioned brands earlier, like working with brands, you cultivate a certain image around brands and you have that consistent image. And with brands, you know, the idea when you're working with brands,

those you are, you're making it look pretty, you're making it look nice, and you're coming up with these characteristics that are generally positive and resonate with a large group of people. I think we do that online as well. So a lot of times, you know, people are showing up into these online communities, trained, conditioned.

course to put on their best selves to provide this polished image, to even impress with the idea that they have it all together. There's a lot of people just giving their opinions versus simply being just honest about how they are. Yeah. So it's hard to create the true community there because you don't have to show up in person.

Melissa Halpin (25:13.396)
Mm-hmm.

April Clarke (25:27.19)
and you're only online for moments at a time. So you're not giving people on the other side of that group, that computer screen, that phone screen, the ability to really see your entire self. And so if you're not exchanging in that way, it's really, really hard to get to that space of vulnerability and sharing. it can be, yeah, it's one of those things, again, if the intention behind it isn't there.

Melissa Halpin (25:50.046)
I do.

April Clarke (25:56.364)
it can never get to that level. So that's how I look at it.

Melissa Halpin (25:58.578)
It's not, sometimes that content that is vulnerable and is messy, you know, it's that mom in her car having a breakdown or, you know, some, the messy house or, you know, the sharing about a divorce. Sometimes that content is really popular and really resonates with, you know, people that need to see it. I find for myself, I'm reluctant to call myself a content creator.

April Clarke (26:03.832)
Yes.

Melissa Halpin (26:27.882)
Because I think maybe it's the branding background. I lean more towards content curating. And I'm more comfortable showing something I'm proud of, something I've edited or curated that I got dressed up for. that level of vulnerability with strangers does not come naturally for me at all. Right?

April Clarke (26:51.667)
No, me neither. It's hard.

Melissa Halpin (26:53.834)
You know, it just makes me squirreling and nervous, right? I mean, even if I put on some lipstick and I put on some earrings and I try to clean up, I'm still squirreling and nervous. Like, gosh, I shouldn't be putting myself out there. So I admire it. And I also really don't understand it. Maybe generationally, like here I am, smack dab in the middle of Gen X. I didn't get an iPhone until I had a baby, right?

Right? So maybe it's not my natural affinity or habitat, but I find it, I still find it kind of curious. And I don't know where I land and I don't know if there's any rights or wrongs, but it's quite a difference, right? And who's willing to show up.

April Clarke (27:40.014)
Thank you.

April Clarke (27:44.078)
Yeah, yeah, I, that's right. And I think the people who are willing to be extremely vulnerable and like I said, intentional about how they show up.

Melissa Halpin (27:45.125)
strangers.

April Clarke (27:56.003)
You know, they do a really good job of mentioning people. And I'm just like you, like I'm not, you know, I don't do a whole lot of podcasts, I don't do a whole lot of selfies. It's funny, the folks who are working on my LinkedIn presence, they're like, you have to create all of these selfies, know, since we're gonna do a lot of posts with the selfies. And I'm like, I don't do a lot of selfies, I don't know. Like, I'm worried about it, are you seeing my gray? Like I colored in my gray.

Melissa Halpin (27:58.366)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (28:03.7)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (28:22.343)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

April Clarke (28:23.726)
So yeah, that is tough, but I think that is funny is when you put your full self out there, when people can see someone authentic, especially as we are moving further into the age of AI, when you can't believe anything you see, hardly anything.

Melissa Halpin (28:40.712)
Right, right, right.

April Clarke (28:42.094)
It's cool to see real people, real authentic lives, real authenticity. So I'm willing to put myself more out there now because of that. One, because people need something authentic and they just need something real for themselves. I think people need community more than they ever have. And I love to be at the center of that conversation and there for others. Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (28:52.49)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (29:01.554)
rest.

Melissa Halpin (29:06.014)
Yeah, me too, me too. I know I need it, right? It's kind of that business adage of like build what you need and someone else will need it too. And I have felt at many a tables and many of stages, you know, I'm honored to be here and I admire these people and it's still not home.

April Clarke (29:15.534)
That's right.

April Clarke (29:25.644)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Melissa Halpin (29:26.58)
Right? And I think, you know, maybe my community is actually really quite small and it's sort of like these, maybe it's mostly female and mostly creative and artistic and it just narrows and narrows and narrows down to like these quirky weirdos and there's only three of us. Right? Right. Because maybe that...

April Clarke (29:48.588)
That's okay.

Melissa Halpin (29:54.118)
Maybe that feeling of exclusion that I'm experiencing is because I really don't belong in a lot of these spaces. I don't know.

April Clarke (30:03.31)
Well, that's interesting, now that you say that, because feelings of exclusion. So I'm actively looking for the feelings in places of inclusion and automatically believing that any place that I'm excluded isn't for me anyway. So what?

Melissa Halpin (30:14.707)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (30:21.542)
Yeah. Right, right.

April Clarke (30:24.734)
So what? And those spaces aren't for me. And again, if I'm looking at spaces that are going to meet my needs, that I'm going to be fed, that I'm going to have an opportunity to serve a human need of providing support to someone else, I have to have that opportunity. And I'm not going to get that from a place of exclusion. So if I'm not welcomed.

Hey, you're missing out. There's other places I can be. Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (30:50.122)
Right. Right. Right.

Right. I'm not for you. It's 100 % fine. Yeah, I'm getting more more comfortable with that.

April Clarke (30:59.394)
Yeah, yeah.

April Clarke (31:03.832)
very much so.

Melissa Halpin (31:04.296)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a rare bird. Maybe we all are. Maybe we all are.

April Clarke (31:11.64)
We all have our things, we all have our quirks. And it's funny, I don't even consider you a rear bird. You're just, you're a cool human. And for me, that's a foundation that I seek in any person, in any community space. Are you a cool human? And the cool thing is, I like your quirks. You don't have to be exactly like me.

Melissa Halpin (31:16.019)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (31:22.27)
Thanks.

Melissa Halpin (31:31.315)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (31:35.304)
Right.

April Clarke (31:38.03)
And so we can all be rare birds together. could be 3, 10, 20, 100. But if in this space we are okay with each other's quirks and we could show up for each other and you are comfortable with me and I'm comfortable with you and you support, you know, and hope to, you know, meet a need, then, and I'm doing it for you. That's all that matters.

Melissa Halpin (31:41.603)
Right, right, right, right. Yes.

Melissa Halpin (31:56.127)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (32:06.856)
Yeah, absolutely. I have a hard time describing it because I feel like maybe it's a little woo-woo, but the older I get, the more I'm operating on a spiritual level. It's a sense. It's a knowing. It's on a cellular level. It's on a nervous system level. It's just on an inner truth.

April Clarke (32:22.808)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (32:31.742)
You actually, at least I actually do know my people immediately. And just getting better at listening to that of who do I feel safe with? Where do my cells calm down and my actual self comes through comfortably and I'm not editing it and I'm not nervous and I'm not trying to be anything else?

April Clarke (32:44.728)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (33:00.586)
Maybe that's just maturity. Maybe that's the gift of midlife, right? You're a little bit a ways, but there was something for me about turning 50 that I just don't have time to be dealing with awkwardness or working harder than I need to to explain myself or to be myself because that's just time I don't have anymore.

April Clarke (33:04.974)
Well...

April Clarke (33:20.994)
Yeah.

April Clarke (33:27.49)
Well, you have plenty of time, but a lot of time to be just throwing away on nonsense. But I look at it the same way. I want to be able to welcome the opportunity for meeting great people and for doing great things with these great people. I don't want to spend too much time, like you said. Awkwardness is fine.

Melissa Halpin (33:31.613)
Yeah.

Right.

April Clarke (33:53.28)
Awkwardness is fine at the beginning stages of a relationship, not for a continuing relationship. So, you know, I just don't have time to be in discontent. I think that this life was meant to, you know, find contentment, find joy, to share it with other people. And I can't accomplish that basic human purpose if I'm not.

and real community and friendship and love with another human being.

Melissa Halpin (34:24.254)
Yeah, especially now. I feel like that's something we can all do in our own lives to model that sense of safety and authenticity. Maybe that's an overused kind of word, but it's really true. If we can all work on that, that's a good message and it spreads and it gives permission.

April Clarke (34:37.496)
Yeah.

April Clarke (34:49.55)
That's right. That's right.

Melissa Halpin (34:51.154)
Yeah. Yeah. So how does that dovetail with leadership? I know you're running businesses and you're running organizations and sitting on boards. And like myself, both you and I have chosen to step into some leadership. And how do we bring these ideas with us when the conversation is about bottom line or next quarter or growth?

April Clarke (35:07.47)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Halpin (35:18.366)
I think this is an interesting thing to weave into leadership conversation.

April Clarke (35:23.028)
Okay, yeah, that's interesting. for me, you know, they always say, you know, you have to have your values. And we talked a little bit about this just now. And then of course, you want to have your values, not just your personal values, you know, values around how you want to present and run your business. And that affects, you know, what you do, how you do it, who you work with, who you hire.

For me, I find that because I'm not compromising on any part of myself at all or my values, I want to ensure that I am not necessarily promoting my values, but standing firm in my values in everything that I do. So as a leader, you know, I'm ensuring that those values are present.

Melissa Halpin (35:53.876)
Mm-hmm.

April Clarke (36:16.982)
and that again, I'm not compromising anything. And again, I'm standing firm in it. So those things are expressed in everything that I do and if there's a moment in time when I feel like those values aren't present, it's necessary for me to then speak up and say something. And because I am firm in who I am and what those values are, I'm firm in my actions around standing ground in those values and saying something.

So I think it's just simply about, like we talked about early, being aware of what you want, who you are, what your values are, so you can carry those things through as a leader.

Melissa Halpin (36:58.42)
feel like even your early story about going into the principal's office, that that came naturally to you. That being able to stand your ground and put up a little fight for what you needed came natural to you. And I super duper admire that because I feel for myself, here I am, I'm 52, I still struggle with standing my ground. I still have very much been

April Clarke (37:06.606)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (37:27.018)
Culturated to be nice to be cooperative, you know to be a good girl to be pleasant You know to give everybody an opportunity to talk like I'm seeing these things more and more clearly of Some of the way I was raised and some of the way the culture has conditioned me to be as a female They're not serving me anymore because I wasn't April in middle school I did not go into any room and say this is what I need

April Clarke (37:30.35)
Come on.

Melissa Halpin (37:56.722)
And so I'm still practicing that and I feel like what a gift that you got it early. maybe a rough start forced you to get it early. I heard some of that in there.

April Clarke (38:11.618)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the thing. So because I had alcoholism in my family and because we had very little financial means, it was a household where I knew my mom loved me, I had a good time being around my brothers, but there wasn't a whole lot of time and opportunity for this hardcore nurturing to take.

Melissa Halpin (38:42.152)
Right. Survival mode. You guys were in more survival mode.

April Clarke (38:43.733)
So it was a lot of, exactly, we were always in survival mode. And so, you my mother did, you know, the right things as a mom. The things that I admire about my upbringing and my mom is that she encouraged prayer because she was a praying woman. I'm not a, you know, I'm not heavily in the church, but I believe in spirituality and a higher power. And, you know, I pray, you know, every day and meditate.

but she believed in prayer, she was always praying. She believed in education, she believed in reading, and so she lit some fires inside of me so that I could constantly, I always had a thought to constantly pursue something, higher learning or something. But again, an opportunity, not an opportunity for nurturing. And so I, in a house where,

you know, that have people around me. I didn't talk a whole lot about, you know, feelings, that kind of thing. I oftentimes would create opportunities for myself to have these conversations. So that's what, guess that's the one thing that's carried over into my adulthood. I'm always having these conversations about and exploring things with folks around things that I want. So if something wasn't up to par and I had any kind of opportunity to talk about it, I'm gonna go.

Melissa Halpin (40:10.282)
All

April Clarke (40:11.476)
in that principal's office and say, hey, yeah, I know this is a low funded public school, can we do something here? Can we do something? And maybe someone will listen. And it's interesting, the thought process there was no one's going to do it for me. I got to do it on my own. I'm not going to often always have the support of parents that go into the

Melissa Halpin (40:19.988)
Right, this is what I need to get out of this. Yeah. Right.

Melissa Halpin (40:38.122)
Bye.

April Clarke (40:41.196)
the school and do something. But the interesting thing about that is because I was so vocal, there were other people that were there to help. So technically it was never about getting something done alone. It was simply being expressive, like actually using my voice to actually get things done. Now I will say that in order for me to truly believe that there had to be people along the way to nurture that, right?

Melissa Halpin (41:10.996)
Right, we're right.

April Clarke (41:11.188)
So that helped me believe that if I use my voice more, you know, I could get some things done. I could get some help. So that's where that started. you know, I guess again, that threat has carried itself throughout my entire life.

Melissa Halpin (41:33.418)
I admire it. I admire it. I need a little April coaching on when to speak up sooner. I mean, I know it's sort of like a cultural joke, the whole mansplaining thing. But I find myself as a businesswoman in negotiations at tables with peers at networking events where I leave and I feel like I didn't need that. Dude.

April Clarke (41:37.902)
You

April Clarke (41:47.586)
and

Melissa Halpin (42:02.249)
I didn't need your wisdom. I didn't need you to tell me how to do my business. But I still have that programming to be...

April Clarke (42:13.388)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (42:17.258)
I don't know what the word is to to listen you know to be pleasant and You know to hear all these other voices and sometimes it's enough enough is enough with you, dude I have that feeling a lot in life

April Clarke (42:23.325)
yeah.

April Clarke (42:29.064)
Yeah, you just said it. You said, when you leave those experiences, feel really, you feel kind of icky. You feel disappointed. You feel like you wasted your time. You feel like that person got on your nerves, but you feel a sense of discontent. And so that's what I, I'm not avoiding that, you know, in my life, but I'm not.

Melissa Halpin (42:38.836)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Halpin (42:42.73)
Yeah.

April Clarke (42:55.242)
Again, I don't want those type of experiences. So, you know, I fully get what you're saying, but it's funny there's a book out called The Courage to Be Disliked and I have got to read this book. I love the title. So I feel like I have that courage. I have the courage to be disliked. Okay, and I'm okay with it. Especially if what a person or doesn't like about me is a stance on an issue.

Melissa Halpin (43:11.882)
You do! You do! You do!

April Clarke (43:25.442)
or a value I keep. Those are like things you don't compromise on. So if you don't vibe on a certain idea or value, cool, because we need to go to our own separate for spaces where those values and ideas are celebrated. So I have the courage to be disliked. I gotta read the book though and see what all the context is, but I truly love the title.

Melissa Halpin (43:31.731)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (43:46.239)
Yeah.

I love it too. Let's read it together. We can have a little book club of two. Yeah. It sounds like I could use it.

April Clarke (43:53.376)
Right, right, definitely. And anybody else who watches, right, that's true.

Melissa Halpin (43:58.558)
Yeah, yeah. That is one thing that I have thought about adding to the Kindling Project is some form of a book club, some form of a discussion. Because the podcast conversations, obviously, or maybe not obviously, but I choose guests I think that are going to come and show up and talk about real topics, whether it's having an empty nest or building a community or going through a divorce or

April Clarke (44:08.014)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Halpin (44:28.008)
you know, starting a nonprofit. But the content goes out into the universe and then we don't always get the back and forth from this platform. And so maybe some form of syncing up a book club and ideas with podcast conversations with interaction is something that could be like a next level of, yeah, because consuming ideas is different than

April Clarke (44:35.694)
Yeah.

April Clarke (44:47.83)
Hmm? Yeah. Yeah. It's all good.

Melissa Halpin (44:56.754)
talking them through and implementing them.

April Clarke (45:00.588)
It's true, and that's interesting because you talked about technology in these spaces, these digital spaces for community and if they could work well. And there's the lack of true involvement, authenticity, and vulnerability that people can bring to the table when they're online.

if you again, if you have the intention to carry it through, right? So, you know, like you said, it doesn't have to go into a void.

The ideas can be there and they can have these supporting mechanisms for getting people together to fully explore the ideas. And that's where the true community can kind of show up, especially the people that really want to be there, right? They're just not, you know, turning on the computer, watching us step in like, like, and then, you know, see them anymore, right? So.

Melissa Halpin (45:32.542)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (45:51.976)
Right. Right.

April Clarke (45:55.008)
So those spaces can truly be community spaces with your intent of like bringing us all together. I loved your event. I loved the fact that you do these podcasts on a regular basis. I love that you do the Wednesdays where people can give a shout out about themselves and share like their community resources or things they offer and can contribute to the community. every way that you're

intentionally setting out to connect to people and bring them in I think are important and it takes this this even further.

Melissa Halpin (46:30.89)
Thanks, friend. I really appreciate your support, and I just really admire your way in the world. So I hope that everybody who listened today got something from this. Is there anything else that we didn't touch on that you wanted to share?

April Clarke (46:48.446)
a whole host of things. We'll just have to talk another time. No, I guess the only thing that I hope resonates with people because we talked so much about why community and what community could look like or really truly looks like. I hope people find.

Melissa Halpin (46:51.858)
yeah. Well, if something comes to mind, now's your chance.

April Clarke (47:10.402)
like that definition of what a community space could look like for them. I don't think people consciously look at spaces and look at the differences. this doesn't, I can use the space for this, but this is where I'm going to find true support. And not a lot of time is spent uncovering what your values are and what you desire and what you won't compromise before you step into another space. that's where I say, that's when the disappointment comes in, when that space.

Melissa Halpin (47:29.62)
Mm-hmm.

April Clarke (47:38.786)
you know, doesn't meet your needs or doesn't fully accept or appreciate some characteristic about you. But if you spend the time upfront figuring that stuff out, you can have better outcomes. So.

Melissa Halpin (47:39.038)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Halpin (47:50.718)
Right. Right. Right. And I think there's a real trend in creating brands around communities. And we all understand messaging these days. We're all bombarded with messaging these days. There's been a huge push in the last decade that I've been a business owner to state your mission and to share your core values. Unfortunately, those get sort of whitewashed.

April Clarke (48:11.598)
Mm-hmm.

April Clarke (48:19.256)
Mm.

Melissa Halpin (48:19.402)
They get really very kind of generic, and these are the acceptable values, and it's hard work, and it's integrity. And I see them over and over again, and they almost feel like the top 10 we just need to set aside now. We have to get to what's real and what's unique. What makes that, some of those are like a bare minimum, actually.

April Clarke (48:28.696)
you

April Clarke (48:44.718)
Definitely, definitely.

Melissa Halpin (48:46.018)
Right. Yeah, of course. I don't want to be here if you're breaking any laws.

April Clarke (48:50.222)
All right. That's all right. Right. I don't want that. I'll bring that over here. Right. Like, let me know upfront. Like, so that I can pass. Right. No, I completely agree with you. I mean, you know, you create images around brands because you're trying to sell something, right? And people do it with themselves because they're trying to sell themselves. I think true authenticity doesn't require you to sell any part of yourself.

Melissa Halpin (48:53.794)
Yeah, yeah, if you're actively abusive, I'll pass.

Melissa Halpin (49:03.148)
All right.

Melissa Halpin (49:12.713)
Right.

April Clarke (49:20.022)
It just requires you to show up. So, you know, I think that, you know, I can have real values like we talked about. I'm not gonna be acceptable or not acceptable, but tolerated in a space. I'm not gonna cut some part of me off because it makes someone else feel uncomfortable. And...

Melissa Halpin (49:20.382)
Right. Right.

Melissa Halpin (49:35.37)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

April Clarke (49:45.768)
I want to be able to shout out what I like, what I don't like, and have it be no judgment or extremely celebrated. Those are like foundation things for me. And then I want to be able to explore things with other people. I want someone else to be able to fully show up as themselves. I want someone else to have the quirks and the things they enjoy and feel celebrated.

Melissa Halpin (49:50.58)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (49:56.658)
Right.

April Clarke (50:15.05)
So yeah, those are my values. That's what I want to bring to the table. That's what I want to see in someone else. yeah, they don't, that sounds like inclusivity. And a lot of people don't want to talk about that, but that is definitely a foundation for me.

Melissa Halpin (50:19.145)
Right.

Melissa Halpin (50:29.214)
Right?

Melissa Halpin (50:35.214)
au contraire, my friend. A lot of people want to talk about it. I just don't like where this conversation is going. Right? We are having this, we are having this, you know, antithesis of the DEI conversation going on right now. And it just enrages me.

April Clarke (50:42.232)
All right, we're having weird conversations about it.

April Clarke (50:53.518)
And it raises so many other people. think in general, people say they like diverse communities. People have gone back and forth on the idea of equality, and people like the idea of inclusivity. They just don't always know what that entails or are comfortable with what that entails. And I think that...

larger conversation that's happening now, the negative one, has absolutely nothing to truly do with not accepting diversity and inclusion. It's about promoting something else entirely. And that's the conversation that a lot of people don't want to have. But I stand firm in my desire for, need for,

This is what I'm going to be searching for and if you don't like it, again, you ain't for me, I ain't for you. And that's how it has to be.

Melissa Halpin (51:54.442)
Right. Right.

Melissa Halpin (52:00.68)
Yeah, that's exactly right. I think about, I'm just paraphrasing now, I think about this Ruth Bader Ginsburg question that was posed to her about when will there be enough women on the Supreme Court? And I think her answer was when they're all women. And I do like how that challenges.

April Clarke (52:20.014)
Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (52:27.698)
You can't have real DEI or real diversity and equity inclusion when the framework is still white male supremacy. If we're still living in a culture with a framework that says, hey, we've got a minority on our board and we've got two women on our board. If we're still living in a society where we're patting ourselves on the back for counting numbers and tokenism and.

So in that sense, I weirdly do agree with, yeah, a day without DEI programs would be great. That would be a day with all nine Supreme Court justices being women, right? Because it wouldn't matter.

April Clarke (53:12.417)
truly, truly, it was better.

Melissa Halpin (53:13.47)
Yeah, that's where, that's, you know, that's my, that's my dream. That's my idealism. That's, that's what I'm pushing for personally. But maybe I'm not pushing hard enough. Maybe I'm still trying to find a voice. Maybe I'm still trying to be middle school April, showing up with demands.

April Clarke (53:35.064)
This is interesting. I think the very fact that you are aware of it and you have conversations around it and you're trying to create an inclusive community and you are wanting to do more is more than what a lot of folks are doing right now. So that is appreciated.

Melissa Halpin (53:53.203)
Right.

April Clarke (54:05.12)
Same here, know, what wanting to develop community, standing firm in principles and values, not compromising myself or anything I believe. think those are important assets too. you know, I don't think this is the end. This is not the end of, of course, the DEI conversation. I believe it will evolve. We'll get to a place where we can have

you know, more conversations, better conversations, put it back into action as it was originally intended. But I think continuing to do work, continuing to seek, you know, put action behind our words, talk more about it, you know, we may not get that utopia, but it's not, it's not, it's always worth striving for it.

Melissa Halpin (54:43.454)
Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Halpin (55:05.578)
perfectly said. I'm with you. Let's keep having this conversation.

Thanks, friend. This was great. It's great to see you. I'm honored to have you. Before you go, can you tell people where they can find you?

April Clarke (55:21.472)
you can always find me on LinkedIn, AprilClarkMBA, or you can go to my personal website at AprilClark.com. That's A-P-R-I-L-C-L-A-R-K-E.com.

Melissa Halpin (55:34.41)
And in those two places, can they also find your businesses if they'd like, could learn more about them?

April Clarke (55:40.75)
Yeah, definitely. On my personal site, you can learn more about me, what I do in the community, a lot more about these principles around community, as well as both the nonprofit and for-profit business.

Melissa Halpin (55:55.338)
Perfect. All right, enjoy the rest of your Saturday. I'll talk to you soon.

April Clarke (55:59.727)
You too, bye friend.

Melissa Halpin (56:01.556)
Bye friend.

April Clarke (56:09.358)
All