Real Talk About Friendship PART 2: Boundaries and Building Better Connections

This conversation explores the emotional complexities of navigating friendships and breakups as adults. The participants share personal experiences and insights on how relationships evolve over time, the impact of social media, and the challenges of maintaining boundaries. They discuss the emotional weight of friendships, the difficulty of having tough conversations, and the process of healing after a breakup. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and understanding in managing relationships throughout different life stages. In this conversation, the speakers explore the complexities of friendship, self-discovery, and the importance of setting boundaries. They discuss the challenges of navigating friendships during different life stages, the impact of political views on relationships, and the necessity of self-love. The conversation emphasizes the need for healthy boundaries and the process of grieving friendships that no longer serve us, while also addressing the challenges posed by online interactions and reputation management.

takeaways

• Friendships can be as emotionally impactful as romantic relationships.
• Navigating adult friendships often involves changing dynamics and expectations.
• Social media can complicate the healing process after a breakup.
• It's common to compartmentalize friendships based on needs and situations.
• Communication is key in addressing issues within friendships.
• The emotional toll of losing a friend can be significant, regardless of age.
• Self-awareness plays a crucial role in managing relationships.
• It's okay to let friendships fade if they no longer serve you.
• Healing from a breakup often requires time and self-reflection.
• Not all friendships are meant to last forever, and that's okay. Misalignment in friendships often leads to reevaluation of personal contributions.
• Setting boundaries is essential, but can lead to feelings of loneliness.
• Self-discovery is crucial for personal growth and liking oneself.
• Many people cling to toxic relationships due to fear of being alone.
• Friendship dynamics can shift significantly during life changes.
• Healthy boundaries are necessary for maintaining meaningful friendships.
• Political views can create rifts in long-standing friendships.
• Medical decisions should remain personal and not influenced by others' opinions.
• Grieving friendships is a natural part of personal growth.
• Navigating online relationships requires careful consideration of reputation. Eclipses can create significant community reactions.
• 2023 has been a challenging year for many.
• Open communication is essential for healthy friendships.
• Trust and reliability are foundational in friendships.
• Authenticity allows for deeper connections with friends.
• Humor is a vital component of friendship.
• Friendship dynamics can shift over time.
• People-pleasing behaviors often stem from childhood experiences.
• It's important to feel safe and accepted in friendships.
• Friendships can be redefined in a modern context.

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Transcript

Melissa (00:01.178)
You guys are all cool.

Kara Dennison (00:06.499)
We are cool.

Michelle Cooper (00:06.508)
I'm usually pretty warm, but that's a day.

Melissa (00:09.87)
All right.

Back to the Kindling Project podcast, we're trying something new these days with our She Talks, which are conversations with women around a single topic. And tonight I am joined by some of my dear online friends and two of our former podcast guests, Kara Donison, April Eckwielan, Lissa Jones, and Michelle Cooper. Hey girls.

Michelle Cooper (00:34.58)
Hey!

Kara Dennison (00:35.799)
Hey, good to see you all. Fun. Good, it's so nice to be able to see like online friends in real life. It's so exciting. Yeah.

lissa jones (00:35.812)
Bye.

April Eckwielen (00:36.366)
Hey.

Melissa (00:39.202)
How are you?

April Eckwielen (00:47.414)
Yeah.

Melissa (00:47.466)
Isn't it? I love it. Yeah, some days it's my online friends that are my best friends.

Michelle Cooper (00:55.264)
This is true.

Kara Dennison (00:55.747)
Yeah, it's so wild how the internet kind of brings people together like this. That's so cool.

Melissa (01:00.758)
Yeah. So tonight we were thinking about navigating the end of a relationship or a breakup as an adult. Like how do you get through that? How do you recover? And even if it's not a breakup, how do you change your boundaries around your adult relationships? Could be your friends, could be your family, could be your coworkers, could be a former boss, but let's get into it.

April Eckwielen (01:01.115)
Oh, absolutely.

Kara Dennison (01:28.439)
sure. I remember in my 20s, in my early 20s, I would have these like really deep friendships, like super deep friendships, and they would also be super emotional too. And I wasn't, you know, as emotionally evolved as I am now. And there would be times that they would be super explosive. And I always felt so awkward because sometimes I would mourn those friendships that would end, or those like big blow up fights more than I would the

Michelle Cooper (01:57.492)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (01:57.675)
boys that I was dating, you know? And it felt so weird to say, because I would talk to people and be like, yeah, my friend and I would have this like, breakup or whatever it was. And I felt like I would get funny looks, but it was so devastating for me. And I feel like we don't talk about it a lot about how friendships ending are sometimes very emotional. Oh, oh. It's really.

Melissa (02:00.119)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (02:00.17)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (02:11.866)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (02:22.212)
I feel like we're in, when we are in our 20s, that we're so much more emotionally involved with our friends. So as we do age, it does change and it doesn't feel as detrimental to us. But I would agree back in my 20s, like you're really leaning into those relationships that are friendships because like early 20, like early life love is just different than like it, it

Melissa (02:23.519)
It's hard.

Kara Dennison (02:37.045)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (02:37.823)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (02:49.58)
moves into be later and those partnerships kind of grow. So I always found myself like leaning into those especially female friendships at such a young age, especially like going through hard stuff like I always in those transitional periods, those were the people we leaned on. So I think it's absolutely true that those breakups feel so, so hard and it's hard because you don't know how to navigate them too.

because everything is so young and fresh.

Kara Dennison (03:22.791)
Yeah, there's like no break, like he's just not that into you for your like your best friend who just kind of like, I'm never talking to you again. And what you were saying like in your 20s, you're still trying to figure out who you are. And so you place a lot of your identity into your relationships a lot. So it just felt so a lot in your 20s. And I'm glad we kind of grew out of that a little bit as we grew older, but it was a lot. It's a lot for women.

Michelle Cooper (03:25.46)
Yeah. Yeah, like...

Melissa (03:28.675)
Right.

Melissa (03:48.822)
I don't know if I'm growing up slow here, but I think some of the friendships and relationships that have ended like in my 30s, 40s, and now I'm 50 have actually also been really painful, but it's expected in your 20s, the drama. The drama kind of is a surprise in your 40s, like, oh, wait, somebody's being mean to me? Like, I thought I was over that, right?

Kara Dennison (04:05.462)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (04:08.848)
It is.

April Eckwielen (04:09.38)
Oh, absolutely.

Michelle Cooper (04:11.442)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (04:17.363)
I think sometimes you feel like, well, hey, we got this out of our system in our 20s So when you see that in like later decades, you're kind of like, what's happening? Like why are we?

Melissa (04:17.709)
So.

Melissa (04:25.892)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (04:28.482)
It's hard to navigate.

Melissa (04:29.246)
Yeah, it's really hard to navigate. And also, who do you talk to about it? Because we're supposed to have it together. I don't know when. I don't know when the drop dead point is to when you're supposed to have it together because I still don't. But you kind of feel like, should I still be hurting or mourning over this? Or should I talk to my therapist? And I'm married, my husband doesn't want to hear it. The person I talk to about most things is like,

Michelle Cooper (04:54.527)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (04:56.499)
I don't give a...

Melissa (04:58.698)
You know, I have one friend I've had him for my whole life. What are you talking about?

Kara Dennison (05:03.847)
Yeah, that's how my husband is too. He doesn't have like the deep relationships that I feel like we form, you know? Yeah. He's not being in the body.

Michelle Cooper (05:10.849)
Mm-hmm. I'm in a similar situation, my husband also does not, and he's like, men don't talk to each other this way. They don't react this way. They don't engage this way. I don't know what to tell you.

Melissa (05:10.974)
Right. Yeah.

Melissa (05:25.27)
Yes, that's been my experience too. And I feel like, I don't know, we're all married, right? All five of us are married. Oftentimes I feel like I have the burden of being his only friend, right?

Michelle Cooper (05:26.066)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (05:27.83)
Yeah, same.

Kara Dennison (05:41.023)
Yes!

April Eckwielen (05:41.694)
Yeah.

Melissa (05:43.502)
only friend and that's all he needs and I'm like wait but you're not meeting my friend needs. I need 15 other friends. I need my friend to talk about when I feel fat and my friend to help me shop for clothes and my friend to navigate like the school sports and like the list is really long of the friends I need that you're not filling my friend need and sometimes those they come and go right. Some of us have like interacted professionally like professional friends like that gets kind of weird and blurry.

Michelle Cooper (05:52.192)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (06:02.537)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (06:09.732)
learning.

Melissa (06:10.722)
Like, because you can be a professional friend, but then you can be like doing work for one another and then that can end and what happens there? And maybe the dudes or maybe just the ones in our lives, they're like, I didn't put that much into it.

Kara Dennison (06:18.187)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (06:25.387)
Yeah, I don't think they have that. And I think it's a shame too. I mean, not to kind of talk about like the men and women stereotypes, but I think it's a shame. They're missing out on that deep friendship. And I feel like sometimes I have to be that person for my husband because they have that emotional need as well. But talking about that work stuff, I mean, one of my work colleagues passed away a year ago and we became really, really close friends. And it was...

Michelle Cooper (06:28.236)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (06:32.639)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (06:54.591)
devastating and it's hard to explain to people where I'm like, well, yeah, she was a co-worker, but we became friends and, but we talked about like our trauma and you know, it's so complex these relationships that we women have. And I think it's beautiful. But also it's, it's hard to explain because they are so complex and I don't think the guys really get it that much. But I love the complexity of it.

Melissa (07:04.594)
Right, right, right.

Michelle Cooper (07:16.737)
Yeah.

Melissa (07:19.289)
No.

Michelle Cooper (07:20.2)
Yeah. Part of what you brought up too, Melissa, you were saying you need a friend for this and a friend for that and a friend for this. So like as I've aged, I've tried to like almost like compartmentalize my friendships. Like I might have my good time friend that if I want to go out and have a good time and whoop it up and have drinks and dance, that's my go-to person. And if there's somebody that like I need to cry on a shoulder of that becomes another person.

So that's kind of helped me navigate like this idea of breaking up where maybe friendships change and I just try to see somebody in a different light or utilize them in a way that like works for both of us instead of that like go to die hard person that's always there for everything. Maybe they are suited for one area or another and it just kind of changes over time.

Melissa (07:57.69)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (08:17.762)
Yeah. But sometimes it changes and it's hard to get over. Like you miss it, right? You miss somebody or you thought it was, you know, like you thought they were your best friend. Turns out they didn't think you were their best friend. You know, like, and then, you know, I think it's a real thing that we cope with. Maybe it's cause we just have this high need for relationships.

Michelle Cooper (08:22.28)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (08:24.023)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (08:33.555)
Yeah.

Melissa (08:45.154)
But it feels kind of universal among the women I know.

Michelle Cooper (08:48.117)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (08:50.015)
Yeah, I found that I'm someone who changes a lot throughout my life, right? Like as I learn and grow and I transform, when I look back on my life, there have been certain people in that chapter of my life that have been really pivotal in that. And those relationships are really deep. And then I kind of move on. And as I change, not that I move on, I still have love for those people. But

Melissa (08:51.181)
Yeah.

Melissa (08:56.672)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (09:19.675)
As I change and transform, so do they. And so sometimes I get really close to certain people at some points and then I'll move on and have other close friendships too. And I think at times what I've realized and what I've observed in other people is that as they change and as other people change, they hold onto that memory and they really want to have that good time in that memory. And they kind of forget that, hey, that person's changed, I've changed

we might not just be matching at the same level as we used to because of where we are in our lives. And sometimes that causes friction and misalignment when really in reality it's just, hey, we're growing and we might not be growing in the same path as we are, but we still can love and support each other. That's kind of how I've been looking at my relationships and my friendships because for a long time it was devastating to me, like, you're growing away from me. But now it's like, no, you're growing and I'm growing and we can come back to each other when.

Michelle Cooper (10:18.9)
Yeah. And sometimes you just grow to a point where it makes no sense to be in each other's lives for some reason or another. And that's where it becomes kind of like really painful. And like, how do you handle that? How do you have those conversations with somebody? Do you let it fade out? Do you address it straight on? Like, that's the hard thing that I know a lot of women don't know how to kind of address that. That's the hard thing.

Kara Dennison (10:20.395)
The need seems right.

Michelle Cooper (10:46.856)
out in the room, right, where things have changed. I have a particular friend right now, like, that just passively, aggressively posts, like, a lot of things that feel, like, really damaging to the friends that are around her, just talking about how nobody shows up for her in the friend way. Like, just all these, like, things about this. And I found myself, um...

April Eckwielen (10:50.799)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (11:10.597)
Oh.

Michelle Cooper (11:14.388)
when I was actively engaged with her, like bending over backwards to include her. And it just felt like a big stab in the back, right? Or like a completely like, do you not see like the friendships that you have? And so that ungratefulness like made me kind of slide away. And the way that I'm handling that is just by being like kind here or there and making little comments, but not engaging.

And I think that kind of fuels her problem a little bit more is like, because I'm not engaging in the way that I used to, but it just feels, it doesn't feel like a space where you're appreciated. So as my time is more valuable to me and I grow older, those kinds of situations, it's like, so in this particular situation, I've just decided to let it fade. And so,

Melissa (11:42.734)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (12:08.532)
I don't know, is that what you guys usually do? Do you fade? Do you have a direct conversation?

April Eckwielen (12:13.048)
Okay.

I think it depends sometimes. Yeah, I think it depends. It's, I've done it where I've had the conversation and sometimes it's kind of like that mutual, yeah, I get it, yeah, you know, we both had an understanding and agreement and then I've also had the conversation and it's blown up in my face. And then I've also had it where I've just slowly

Kara Dennison (12:16.051)
I've done both, you know.

Michelle Cooper (12:16.961)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (12:38.385)
Yeah.

Melissa (12:40.109)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (12:45.046)
you know, kind of faded into the background. And then that led to going like radio silent and, you know, might pop up here and there, but I don't reach out anymore. I'm not the one to initiate anymore. And it's still, it still sucks. I mean, either way it sucks. Cause when you, when you try to have that conversation,

Michelle Cooper (12:57.504)
Yeah.

Melissa (12:59.235)
Right.

Melissa (13:07.801)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (13:13.602)
You know, me, I'm always like, I don't want confrontation. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. And then I feel like, you know, oh, maybe I'm, maybe I'm looking at this differently and you know, now they're definitely gonna be met. It's just, you know, all that crazy that goes on in your head. But I think ultimately it depends on the situation and who you're, you know, who you're dealing with. And sometimes you have to just.

Melissa (13:30.379)
Right.

April Eckwielen (13:42.794)
You know, sometimes you have to just go radio silent and go, okay. And then, and, and wait and see, you know, that, that's just my thought.

Michelle Cooper (13:44.16)
Yeah.

Melissa (13:51.438)
Right.

Michelle Cooper (13:51.932)
I tend to be a very direct person and something I've learned through my 30s and now going into my 40s is that I can't always be direct with everybody. It could be, it can be much more damaging to some people to hear the direct reasons and sometimes that quiet quitting is more appropriate for somebody. Yeah, that's sensitive or is already struggling in other ways.

April Eckwielen (14:07.436)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa (14:13.974)
Yeah, quiet quitting or go.

April Eckwielen (14:14.126)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (14:21.0)
you're also trying to protect your own boundaries. So that's fun. I used to just like let everybody have it, like whatever I thought. And I've learned to kind of tailor that a little bit too.

Melissa (14:26.126)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (14:26.198)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (14:36.97)
Yeah, it's a process. I mean, definitely it's a process. And I mean, I've approached certain situations like with friends, coworkers, family members, all differently. There have been some where I'm just like, look, let me tell you. And then there's other times I'm just like, all right, well, this isn't.

Melissa (14:41.892)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (14:59.688)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (15:05.762)
this isn't for me, you know, send them some love and light and KC, you know, other people might go in a jar. I don't know. You know, so.

Michelle Cooper (15:10.068)
Yeah.

Melissa (15:10.905)
Right.

Michelle Cooper (15:18.196)
They might get frozen.

April Eckwielen (15:18.954)
You know, it just depends. You know, it just depends, but it's, I mean, I've had kind of like going back, like talking about like when we were in our 20s and everything. I mean, I just turned 48 and looking back at relationships I had back then, it was, you know, devastating when you lost that. And

Kara Dennison (15:19.024)
April.

Michelle Cooper (15:42.156)
Thank you.

April Eckwielen (15:44.102)
Even into my 30s and early 40s when I lost friendships, it was devastating. But now I find myself kind of bouncing back a little bit quicker than I did in the past. And sometimes you see stuff that comes up on socials and stuff, and you kind of get that little, uh. And but now it's just like, oh, OK. All right, moving on.

Melissa (15:55.619)
Mm.

Michelle Cooper (16:06.593)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (16:07.126)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (16:12.388)
Yeah, I think I like it's nice when it's that easy, right? I feel like sometimes these blows are much bigger than that. And then, then you do see things on social media and it triggers it even worse or people bring it every little step or every little piece of drama to you. And I think that hurts the healing process so much. Something I went through earlier this year kind of.

April Eckwielen (16:18.911)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (16:27.438)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (16:33.139)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (16:38.936)
still gets brought to light to me on a regular basis and it hurts every time it's brought up. It's just a constant reminder of some toxic behaviors that were happening with myself allowing things and also all the things that kind of happened through the process. It's just looks like reminder and sets you back, right? So Melissa was talking about that hurt and that pain even at

Kara Dennison (16:39.839)
Thank you.

April Eckwielen (16:46.582)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (16:46.721)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (16:47.063)
Thank you.

Kara Dennison (17:02.307)
It's just a simple thing. It's a few things. It's a very complicated thing. It's a very beautiful thing. It's a few things. It's a very beautiful thing.

April Eckwielen (17:06.187)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (17:07.808)
there are those types of situations that really do still sting. I think I bounce back on a lot of things, but sometimes it's just hard. So figuring out how to deal with it myself, like I went into therapy and I did talk to my therapist about it. And I found other people that had been in similar situations to kind of bounce my feelings off of, and that was super helpful.

Melissa (17:19.798)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (17:35.58)
Otherwise, just like processing it on my own, like writing about it and just thinking about it and being rational with myself was the only thing that I could personally do. So I don't know. What do you do, Melissa, when you're feeling that way?

Melissa (17:47.852)
Right.

Melissa (17:51.926)
Well, just to go back a couple steps, I think you both April and I think all of us have brought up social media complicates it because like you were saying, here's this person saying, Oh, my friends don't show up for me. And you're reading it like, Hey, wait, I'm your friend. I do show up for you. And I do think social media complicates it. And I have one of the ways that I've processed, you know, I would say some friendships or relationships that went south was.

Michelle Cooper (17:53.417)
you

Michelle Cooper (17:58.475)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (18:01.834)
Thanks for watching.

Michelle Cooper (18:07.624)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (18:21.182)
unfollow or unfriend. Like sometimes the reminder that this relationship is broken or this was painful or actually we're not really friends. You know, out of mind, out of sight is better. And I think about that like with my teenagers of this is kind of new to us, right? Like most of us, but they've never not known like whether they break up with a friend or they break up with a...

Michelle Cooper (18:21.27)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (18:32.983)
Thank you.

Michelle Cooper (18:33.42)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (18:36.631)
Thank you.

Melissa (18:50.858)
you know, a significant other, or even if they lose a job, or if they quit a job. Like social media never goes away. And you have to make those decisions. Like, am I still connected to this person? Cause we're not connected in real life. How am I going to navigate this online? Which is like in perpetuity, right? So I've had to, you know, I, you know, there's, there's folks that I've stayed friends with, but just unfollowed.

lissa jones (18:53.198)
Thank you.

Michelle Cooper (18:57.002)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (19:08.895)
Thank you.

Melissa (19:18.618)
Or the one thing, I don't know, at least on Facebook, they have that unfollow for 30 days. I think I just need a break.

April Eckwielen (19:19.758)
Uh huh.

Michelle Cooper (19:22.984)
Yeah. That is kind of helpful sometimes when you're just like irritated. You're just like, oh, can you post not one more politically charged thing or something that just like pulls at your strings, but you're like, oh, I don't want to end this relationship over it, but I cannot take it anymore. Yeah.

April Eckwielen (19:27.399)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (19:32.631)
Right.

Melissa (19:37.617)
Yes.

April Eckwielen (19:37.799)
Uh huh.

Melissa (19:45.866)
Yeah, yeah. Lissa, you're so quiet. What do you think?

lissa jones (19:53.394)
Oh, I'm quiet because I have never ended a relationship in my life. I'm always the one who is left.

Melissa (19:59.478)
No, not even quietly, not even out the back door.

lissa jones (20:04.616)
No, it's terrible. I should, but I don't. So yeah.

Michelle Cooper (20:07.936)
What holds you strong?

Melissa (20:08.502)
You don't. Do you feel like that's like, is that like a boundaries issue or it's just like so hard for you or you just don't want to?

lissa jones (20:16.352)
Oh, I'm sure it's childhood trauma of moving around and losing friends and feeling compelled to hold on to all relationships and, you know, good therapy content, but unfortunately, it does not translate well into setting boundaries or eliminating toxic people from my life. I can't eliminate anyone.

Melissa (20:26.144)
Mmm.

Michelle Cooper (20:36.96)
How do you feel if other people eliminate you? How do you process that?

Melissa (20:38.266)
Well,

lissa jones (20:43.044)
horribly. Yeah, I hadn't really experienced much in the way of friend breakups and then I did two in the last three years that were worse than any significant other breakup I've ever had. Oh, devastating. Super, super hard.

Melissa (20:45.231)
Oh, yeah.

Melissa (21:06.262)
Yeah, I really get that. And it's almost like I feel a little bit of shame of like, oh, I should get over it. Because even at the top of this conversation, Kara was like, yeah, in your 20s. And I was like, oh no, I'm the immature one here. I'm still not getting over it. Yeah, yeah.

lissa jones (21:12.972)
Mm-hmm.

lissa jones (21:20.218)
Hehehehe

Michelle Cooper (21:21.192)
And not all relationships are the same. Not all breakups are the same.

April Eckwielen (21:21.47)
No, no.

Kara Dennison (21:22.039)
No, no, no. Okay, so, no, why not? We're always so hard, but here's where I've come with my relationships is because I'm like, listen, I could not for the longest time let go of anyone. I had a lot of abandonment issues and we can blame it on like daddy issues, dad dying, like all that other stuff. And

April Eckwielen (21:28.938)
No, exactly, exactly.

Kara Dennison (21:47.371)
I held on to friendships for a long time to the point of where it was like they would be walking out the door and I'd be holding on to their like ankles like don't leave me. It was so devastating and it got really, really bad for a long time where I didn't even like myself for a very long time. And it took me leaving like losing people like the friend that died and things like that to kind of get to this point of.

Melissa (21:56.779)
Right?

Kara Dennison (22:17.559)
me having to lose everyone and be alone and be like, okay, now what? Like, now what? You've got no one now. And there was a point in my life before I met Jack where I literally was alone. I lived alone. I had no friends. I had moved to Florida and I had no one. And I had moved away from Pennsylvania where all my friends were. And my birthday came around like very shortly after. And like it was on a Saturday and no one wished me happy.

Melissa (22:24.249)
Right.

Kara Dennison (22:46.303)
like, and it was like on the Facebook, like, because no one was on. And I was like, I know, I was like, yeah, you are right. And I was like, I have to figure out like what life looks like if I have no one, because I feel like I have no one now. And so I finally got to this point with my friendships and thank God, because after all this stuff that has happened recently with like relationships and friends, it's, it's hard, but

Melissa (22:49.286)
I want to be a time traveler go wish you a happy birthday that makes me want to cry Yeah

Kara Dennison (23:14.731)
Here's my mode when it comes to friendships. I go, I'm very hyper aware of my part in friendships. And when it comes to online relationships, like you were talking about, Melissa, I just wanna be able to put my head on the pillow. Like, what is my relationship? And whatever I post online, I just need to know if someone takes a screenshot of it, can I stand behind it? I might not be proud of it at the moment, like afterwards, but can I stand behind it? So that's my first thing.

Melissa (23:36.706)
Right.

Melissa (23:43.021)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (23:44.795)
my friendships, I'm self-aware in the fact that if it's not going well and there's friction, what's my part in it? Because it takes two to tango in anything. And so they might be pissing me off, but I might be pissing them off. Or we just might not be aligning. And so I try and figure out, is it because I grew? Is it because they grew? Is it circumstantial or whatever? And then to

what's the next move? Is it a slow fade out because, Hey, they've got some stuff going on. I'm busy. It's just not a good time right now. Or are they saying stuff to piss me off and I'm saying stuff to piss them off. And we need to have a conversation, right? Because that's what an adult does. And that's what we need to do to communicate and save this and not hurt each other's feelings. Or if I do say something, they're going to be mean and I'm going to, my Jersey's going to come out because I'm born in Jersey and I'm not going to like what I say. And at that point, then I just kind of

April Eckwielen (24:40.682)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (24:43.299)
I do honestly, I burn bridges, I just block, I leave. And I feel fine with that because it's never come back to me.

Melissa (24:46.436)
Mmm.

April Eckwielen (24:46.623)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (24:50.958)
That might be healthy though. I mean, I think I might be more in Lissa's camp where I keep trying to please and I keep trying to please. And, you know, like I'm running in this hamster wheel of people pleasing. And until my husband is like, you know, she's not your friend. You need to quit inviting her. Right.

Kara Dennison (25:06.963)
I did that a lot. I did that a very, very a lot, a lot. And I have no judgment or blame because I do that a lot. And I catch myself. And even Jack's like, hey. Like, hey. Hey. And then I'm like, oh, OK. Yeah. That's wonderful.

Melissa (25:20.467)
Yeah, right, right.

Well, this reminds me, have you guys seen, this is kind of like a common meme. I've seen all these variations of it of like, we can be best friends and not talk for a whole year and then get together and still be best friends. Like some kind of meme along those lines. And I do have some of my lifelong girlfriends that I've known since I was in elementary or middle school still in my life. But honestly, and I'm just being honest and I've told it to them too.

April Eckwielen (25:39.662)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (25:54.99)
do get my feelings hurt like if they don't show up for me or if they're fine with like once a year Christmas gathering and I've invited them to four things this year that they blew off. I don't have a, maybe I'm not good at regulating, but I do take it personally. I mean, I don't know, I do.

Michelle Cooper (26:11.916)
I have a hard time with that too, Melissa. I do too, because I extend myself, so I also am a people pleaser. Antigram number two, if anybody is an anagram person. I also do that a lot and it is hurtful. It's hurtful because I continuously extend myself and know I don't do things for people to do them back, but it does hurt when they don't show up, for sure.

Kara Dennison (26:13.96)
I feel like-

Melissa (26:39.762)
Yeah, I mean, this is like another kind of idea of self-help, but it's like, if I have been depositing in your bank account a lot, like when I need a withdrawal, like I expect there to be something there. It's not why I'm friends with you, but also it can get out of balance, right?

Michelle Cooper (26:45.516)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (26:51.624)
Yeah. And that conversation sucks too, because people are like, why do you give to expect? Well, there's a point to that. It's not it's not that exactly. Yeah. There's some sort of mutual give and take in any kind of relationship. So

Melissa (27:01.226)
Not exactly.

Melissa (27:05.687)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (27:10.33)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (27:10.394)
I think that's where the misalignment comes, right? Like, I understand if you're giving more because that other person happens to be in a tough chapter in their life, right? Like their parents just died or whatever, sure. But if regular life is happening and you continue to be at the 90% and they're at the 10%, that's when I start reevaluating, like me personally. Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (27:16.352)
Sure.

Melissa (27:20.174)
Oh, for sure.

Melissa (27:29.546)
Right.

Michelle Cooper (27:29.826)
And that's where I'm coming in set boundaries now and it's hard because I feel like I'm like cut them out, cut them out, cut them out, cut them out, cut them out, cut, cut. And that's tough. It's tough because sometimes you end up being alone. You cut too much. I'm like, slow your roll. We evaluate.

Melissa (27:38.338)
Right, right.

Yeah.

Melissa (27:51.286)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (27:52.971)
So that's kind of an interesting point, right? So remember that time where I was like, I found myself completely alone, is I spent like three years figuring out, well, if I'm gonna be alone, am I gonna like who I am? And if I don't like who I am, then I better freaking figure the heck out who I am, right? And what, and this, I just had like a talk with my clients about this, but what I came to realize is that in every moment with every person, with you guys,

Melissa (27:58.963)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (28:07.286)
Mmm.

Kara Dennison (28:22.343)
with my husband, with my clients, there's only one constant in every single interaction. And that constant is I'm going to be there. And so I better freaking learn to like myself. And so in those moments where maybe I feel like I don't have a lot of friends or when I do have a lot of friends, the same thing is constant. I like myself, but it took a lot for me to get there. And so there are moments where I don't have a surprise.

Melissa (28:31.618)
Right.

Melissa (28:35.179)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (28:51.299)
surplus of friends, but there are some where I have like really close friends or I have a lot of friends or it goes up and down based on my chapter of my life, but I finally got to the point where I actually liked myself and I didn't have to feel like that with someone like with other friends or whatever. And I'm not saying that you guys don't because I think you guys are freaking badass women, but I think that there is a moment there was a moment in my 20s where I felt if I didn't have friends that I'm not worth anything.

Melissa (29:04.233)
Aww.

Michelle Cooper (29:19.557)
Yeah.

Melissa (29:22.67)
Mm.

Michelle Cooper (29:23.345)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (29:26.163)
And I think a lot of people hang on to shitty fucking people. Sorry. Am I allowed to curse on this? Okay. I think, yeah, I think they hang on to crappy toxic friendships and relationships because they don't like themselves and they feel they're afraid of being alone.

Melissa (29:26.318)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (29:29.642)
Yeah. Yeah, I miss that. Yeah.

Melissa (29:30.57)
Yes, you're allowed to curse. Yes, no. Damn it. I've done it, right?

Michelle Cooper (29:42.508)
Mm-hmm. I think that fear, yeah, that fear is big.

Melissa (29:44.802)
Yeah, or they're familiar. They're familiar. I mean, you find that out in therapy. I don't know how many of you girls have gone, but oh, wait, this is a lot like something else from your childhood. So, or in your family. Yeah, right.

lissa jones (29:46.356)
I think they're familiar. They're familiar. I mean, you find that out in therapy. I don't know how many you've broken down, but... Oh wait! This is a lot like...

April Eckwielen (29:54.579)
Eh?

Michelle Cooper (30:00.284)
Repeat those cycles. I've, I've attracted the same cycle over and over and over again. And I am finally in a breaking point in my cycle, which is changing. I'm. Yeah.

Melissa (30:13.602)
Mm-hmm, me too. I feel like maybe we have that in common. It's taken me a long time, but I am realizing, oh wait, this keeps happening because I'm advertising for this personality type. Of course they're showing up, right?

Michelle Cooper (30:22.91)
I think this person knows.

April Eckwielen (30:26.114)
Okay.

It's a process, it's a process. And it's almost like we have to keep practicing at it, so to speak, if that makes sense. Like practice makes permanent rather than perfect. And I think it's just.

Melissa (30:37.731)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (30:38.732)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (30:40.491)
Yep.

Melissa (30:43.96)
Right.

April Eckwielen (30:47.694)
And we go through so many different seasons and phases and everything that sometimes stuff creeps in and we gotta deal with it again and, you know.

Michelle Cooper (30:58.632)
Mm hmm. Those life lessons are there for some reason or another, right?

Melissa (30:59.95)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (31:03.95)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (31:04.898)
Mm-hmm. And I feel like this topic of friendship is, it is crucially important because, I mean, we're all married now, but not everybody stays married, or sometimes one spouse dies before the other. I wanna have really meaningful long-term friendships, but good ones, healthy ones, ones that I can draw on or trust or feel like,

April Eckwielen (31:27.307)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (31:35.51)
It's a give and take that's fair and reasonable.

Melissa (31:41.335)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (31:41.639)
I can't wait for Alyssa to break up with someone. She's gonna just kick into the curb. I'm so sorry.

Melissa (31:44.074)
Yeah. There's gotta be somebody that's overdue.

April Eckwielen (31:44.327)
I know.

lissa jones (31:49.315)
Oh, probably, probably.

Melissa (31:53.728)
What about boundaries? If you're in the category of like, I've never lost a friend, I've never broken up with a friend, are you good at navigating, okay, this one needs better boundaries?

lissa jones (32:04.224)
No, I'm horrific at that. Not good at all. Yes. Yeah.

Melissa (32:06.198)
You are. Oh, yeah.

I think that's probably common actually, don't feel bad. I certainly have had it. I've certainly have had it.

Michelle Cooper (32:20.756)
I feel like especially in the season of the year that we're in now too, people are struggling with boundaries. I was talking to one of my clients about it today and they're a mental health facility and we are just addressing like how it is okay to set some boundaries around your holiday stress or schedule or what you're comfortable with, what exit plans look like and all of that. So I think it's something that a lot of, and especially

lissa jones (32:28.248)
Oh, for sure.

Melissa (32:29.626)
Oh.

Kara Dennison (32:48.779)
Peace.

Michelle Cooper (32:50.3)
women are struggling with putting those boundaries in place because like, let's face it, we were taught guilt, like if we weren't following family traditions and we weren't showing up in the ways that were expected of us from our elders. And it's kind of changing now because we're becoming the leaders in our families and the hosting people. And I think that carries over to friendships too.

April Eckwielen (33:02.231)
Uh huh. Uh huh.

Michelle Cooper (33:18.6)
And maybe that's why when we're getting older, those, that guilt is changing where we, we're taking those leadership roles and making the decisions and can put those boundaries in place without feeling so guilty about it. So.

April Eckwielen (33:35.318)
Yeah, I think you definitely hit the nail on the head with that, with the guilt. Cause I've even, even gone through like with relationships and stuff. And you talk about like traditions and holidays and all of that. And you get somebody that just makes that one comment and you're just like, Oh, maybe I should. Oh, okay. Well, and there you go back to the people pleasing and it's just, it's a cycle. It's a, it's, it's like a constant, constant cycle.

Melissa (33:35.65)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (33:35.996)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Melissa (33:39.095)
Right.

Michelle Cooper (33:48.789)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (33:50.583)
Mmm.

Michelle Cooper (33:56.128)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (33:59.21)
people think it's like a constant cycle. Yeah. It's tough. Yeah. One of the things that.

Michelle Cooper (34:00.844)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (34:04.118)
Yeah. And one of the things that's...

easier for me, made it easier for me to navigate some family stuff is having kids. So, for example, I tolerated, let's say, political views. Just everybody has a right to express and we don't have to agree. But then when I realized like, oh, this actually is affecting my kid. If I don't speak up here and say, this isn't right, this is not creating a safe environment for my queer kid. And so I might have tolerated.

Kara Dennison (34:09.867)
Thank you.

Melissa (34:38.326)
behavior or slurs or homophobia or racism or something that was just abhorrent to me personally and I just swallowed it down. But now that it's hurting somebody else I love, I have a little bit more reason to be like, not in my house or actually we're not coming to your house, right? Because I feel like I have to do it for them. I have to finally stand up.

Michelle Cooper (34:54.226)
it has.

Michelle Cooper (34:58.544)
Yeah. Have you had to deal with that inside of friendship?

Melissa (35:07.994)
Hmm, I do think at least in the instance of like politics, maybe social values, I do tend to attract like-minded friends, so not so much, but maybe in casual friendship circles, like the basketball moms or the neighborhood moms or the happy hour friends that we hang out with, where I didn't so much attract them,

Kara Dennison (35:09.627)
Interesting.

Kara Dennison (35:25.933)
Thank you. Have a great day.

Kara Dennison (35:36.728)
Thank you.

Melissa (35:37.634)
We're in a group together by location, or for some reason of not my choosing. But I think I have gotten better of either walking away, which is I guess a way of expressing, hey, I don't agree with this, or we're not going back. Okay, well, it was nice of them to include us in their happy hour, but we're not going back.

Melissa (36:08.486)
But people that you can't walk away from quietly, I've gotten a little bit more backbone about, you know what, it's not appropriate. Not here, not, you know, not, I know you're not gonna change anybody's mind, but you're also not gonna make an unsafe environment for my kid, so.

Michelle Cooper (36:23.701)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, there's been like some longtime friends that like were around from high school, those ones that you just kind of like kept around that I really in the political atmosphere lately I set some boundaries and cut some things off because it just was not sitting right with me. And that's, that's hard to, that's hard to reconcile with yourself that like this lifelong person that is in good, good in many ways.

Kara Dennison (36:35.548)
So, that's it. Thank you. Yeah, that's kind of it.

Kara Dennison (36:45.966)
So thank you for your attention. I'll see you next time.

Melissa (36:47.299)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (36:54.476)
Right.

Michelle Cooper (36:55.364)
is completely unaligned with me in ways that are super important with me. I had an ectopic pregnancy in 2019. So like the Roe versus Wade thing especially was a trigger point for me with a lot of people and they don't understand that medication that you need if you have an ectopic pregnancy is.

Melissa (36:57.527)
Right.

Kara Dennison (37:08.398)
So, it's not necessarily that the people are just amazing.

Thank you.

Kara Dennison (37:19.061)
Thank you.

Michelle Cooper (37:20.764)
is under the same umbrella and they're putting so many women in danger by not allowing that. So that was like a, that was a cutting point for me where I did set some pretty firm boundaries with people and when they didn't understand that was also hurtful too. Like to think, oh shit, well you wouldn't have cared if I died. Like, and it was kind of hard to reconcile it like taking it back to like these toxic breakups with friendships. Like for somebody to not understand how

Melissa (37:28.088)
Right.

Melissa (37:41.964)
Right.

Michelle Cooper (37:50.132)
that could have put me, somebody they know, somebody they call a friend, and into a complete situation where you could die. I just don't, I didn't understand. So that was a point with me, like bringing in the political pieces and having to like cut those ties. Yeah.

Kara Dennison (38:00.445)
Shit.

Melissa (38:02.008)
Yeah.

Melissa (38:09.806)
Right. And then you feel like I also had an ectopic pregnancy, and I also had just a horrific six-year fertility journey with a lot of loss. And the two children I have here were very, very high-risk pregnancies and preemies. So April can probably relate to the medical side of what that looks like for her past career. But people do not understand, for example, the ectopic pregnancy. The pregnancy is not viable.

Michelle Cooper (38:11.532)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (38:16.673)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (38:34.223)
Okay.

Melissa (38:38.11)
Anyway, you're dying. I mean, you're dying if you stay pregnant also, right? And then I had a very, very high risk pregnancy with my last pregnancy, which is my son. And I was in the hospital from August to December on bed rest. I mean, it's a miracle that he's here, but also there were a lot of points in that where if you deliver this baby, you know, what are we doing here?

Michelle Cooper (38:39.322)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (38:42.884)
Wow.

Michelle Cooper (38:53.415)
I'm on it.

April Eckwielen (38:55.818)
now.

Melissa (39:06.934)
Are you gonna try to stay pregnant? Are we gonna end this pregnancy? Like the baby's life is at risk or your life is at risk or this baby's not viable yet. Those conversations that until you are making those devastating, heartbreaking medical decisions, just shut the fuck up. Like you do not have anything to say about this situation. It's between the woman and her doctor and hopefully the supportive impregnator, whoever that happens to be.

Michelle Cooper (39:34.885)
Yeah.

Melissa (39:36.41)
Right? But like, stay out of it. Right? I mean, I know there's not a life involved, but like, there's a lot of medical decisions, like people would not want you chiming in, like don't take chemo or take chemo or don't have a surgery, have a surgery, like mind your own business, right?

Michelle Cooper (39:39.776)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (39:49.308)
Yeah. Why are you taking insulin? Why don't you just change your diet? Like, oh, yeah.

Melissa (39:59.35)
Right, exactly, exactly. And then you have to ask yourself, kinda trying to stay on the track of friendship, is this person really my friend? Right, if they're chiming in with their overly aggressive politics, do they even care about me? Right?

Michelle Cooper (40:08.044)
Right? That's the hard piece.

April Eckwielen (40:13.005)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (40:18.72)
That's where the pain comes, right? In your questioning of yourself and where is your value lie in all of that? Yeah, it's hard. It's hard.

Melissa (40:22.446)
Right?

Melissa (40:30.638)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (40:33.395)
Sometimes I go back to is my piece worth all this? Like is my piece worth it? You know? Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (40:35.445)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (40:37.686)
Mm. Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (40:42.382)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (40:43.786)
It feels like you've spent a lot of time on that though, that you're getting a handle on liking yourself and being at peace. I'm like, I need to follow Kara around a little more. Yes. Do you want to coach us or like write a course?

Michelle Cooper (40:53.28)
Do you have a lesson? Do you have a lesson book for us? You can coach us, coach us through it.

Kara Dennison (40:58.967)
I'll give you five addition copies.

April Eckwielen (41:01.558)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (41:05.119)
I mean, I would love to, but I feel like I've experienced a lot of loss in my life and I've become very familiar with grief. And so I like to, when it comes to some of the things that I'm experiencing, like misalignment in friends or partners or like business partners or whatever I'm doing, like work or I like to ask myself, okay, like is continuing down this path worth the

Melissa (41:13.823)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (41:33.339)
anxiety, agony, like all of this stuff that I'm experiencing, or would me grieving this and getting to the other side to be worth it? And sometimes the answer is going through the grieving process so I can get to acceptance and moving on and seeing the opportunities. Because a lot of times we're so afraid of change that we stay where we are, like I was saying, right? We're staying because it's comfortable, this person's comfortable, whatever. But if you zoom out, right? And you look at your life from like a bird's eye view,

are they bringing anything to your life? Like, are they really bringing joy to your life? Or would it hurt? Yes, it would hurt, but would closing that door open up opportunities? And I found like as kind of, I don't know, morbid or whatever as it sounds, when I look back on my life and I see, like even going back as far as my dad dying at 14, like before my dad died,

I was a small town girl. I was never leaving New Jersey. That was my life. I was gonna marry a guy from church and I was gonna become a teacher. And because my dad died, I traveled the world. I've moved, I've lived like all of this stuff and I'm not saying I'm happy that it happened. Of course I'm sad, but there were opportunities on the other side of this awful thing. And everything that has happened in my life has closed the door to open up other things. And so when I...

Melissa (42:35.724)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (42:49.173)
Mm.

Kara Dennison (42:57.047)
I sometimes it might sound callous, but I do it in a very emotional and intentional way. I look at the things in my life and the people in my life. And if there's misalignment, like I communicate first, I want to make sure like, let's get on the other side of this. Let's absolutely work through this. But if they're unwilling or if they don't want to be a part of what I'm doing and vice versa, then yeah, let's grieve that. Let's mourn it. And I, I do like I Scorpio moon, like I'm like, whoa, very emotional.

then I get on the other side of it so that I can keep seeing what else is out there for everyone involved. Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (43:33.108)
I think that's something that I've put in place recently too. It's been a life lesson in this particular year, whereas I went through something in my career that really changed my path and it was fucking scary when it happened and it hurt a lot because there were accusatory things that were happening that are being said that just like weren't happening. It just wasn't the intention. There was nothing.

Melissa (43:42.295)
Mm.

Michelle Cooper (44:01.904)
malicious going on and to be in that seat and not know how to defend yourself, not know whether you stay quiet or you speak up or do you address it. Something I've navigated is kind of that healing process that Kara is talking about just like, okay, this is what it is and now I'm going to grieve it and I'm going to set it down and

I'm going to allow the other things to come in and manifest into my life afterward. And I've started my own thing and really grown it. And I've been able to see a lot more worth in myself and more belief in myself on how much I can do on my own through that process, even though it was super hurtful. It's kind of led to a better or higher vibration or higher calling of myself.

Melissa (44:56.983)
Right.

Michelle Cooper (44:57.908)
which I can, you know, I can fucking do. Which was cool, right? But it's hard when people say things about you that just aren't true. And you wonder like, who's gonna believe them or does it matter who believes them? And then you say, oh, it doesn't matter if they believe them and they're not my people. But at the same time, like reputation matters. There's all these like swirling things, but.

April Eckwielen (44:58.687)
Uh-huh.

Melissa (45:02.379)
Yay. You can do. We're here for it. But it's super hard.

Kara Dennison (45:04.634)
Yes, girl!

Michelle Cooper (45:27.236)
I agree, Kira, you just have to grieve it and let it go and be your best self moving forward, right? Ugh.

April Eckwielen (45:36.934)
Abs- abs- wait. Yeah!

Kara Dennison (45:37.087)
And it's not easy. You guys saw me with some of this stuff. I'm like, but it's like, it's, let it go after, after we do it. You know? Yeah. April.

Michelle Cooper (45:38.006)
Hmm

Michelle Cooper (45:42.58)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (45:43.231)
It's hard.

April Eckwielen (45:47.154)
And when you're on a path, when you're on a new path, and you see which way you wanna go, there's always gonna be other people who are going to try to kind of pull you back. It's like, here, come over here. Remember you were comfortable here. Remember this. And then they're gonna try to put their wrench into it because people don't like change.

Melissa (46:05.411)
Right.

Michelle Cooper (46:11.732)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (46:13.554)
And if they see somebody else growing and changing, they're going to do everything in their power to make that not happen.

Michelle Cooper (46:22.33)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (46:25.278)
You know, and it dawns on me because I know a little bit about your biographies and your work lives. The way we work now is different. So if you have professional relationships that blur the line of friendships and something goes south, I think maybe five or 10 years ago in a work environment, you go to HR, right? There isn't an HR now. Like we're all gigging it. And navigating...

Kara Dennison (46:35.191)
Absolutely.

Michelle Cooper (46:46.824)
Yeah.

Melissa (46:54.306)
wait, this situation, like there isn't a clear contract or a clear like, you know, line of command if you will. I don't know if that's the right language, but we're kind of on our own figuring this out, right? And you know, you bring up reputation and it's so important if you're a freelancer, right? Like one bad Yelp review, Google review, you know, nasty comment can harm you.

It can harm your ability to pay your mortgage. It's not like you have this office job where one nasty comment, well, only a couple of people in the break room heard it. It could stick on you.

Michelle Cooper (47:37.132)
Mm-hmm.

especially when accusations are being thrown around online, which goes back to that social media piece that really changes things. Yeah.

Melissa (47:45.962)
Yeah.

Melissa (47:51.03)
It does.

April Eckwielen (47:52.622)
Keyboard Warriors.

Michelle Cooper (47:52.7)
It's true.

Melissa (47:54.794)
Yes. Isn't it shocking how emboldened people are?

Michelle Cooper (48:00.357)
Mm-hmm. You wonder, you wonder, would they say that in front of me? Would they accuse me of that to my face? Would they? No. The answer is no, they won't.

Melissa (48:02.354)
Even like, yeah.

Melissa (48:07.159)
Yeah.

Melissa (48:14.395)
No. Well, even just like, we have these family members. I mean, I swear, you know, there's probably a meme about it, but like these sort of boomer family members that are like the sweetest, nicest, most polite, you know, church going folk you ever met. And now that they have a Facebook account, holy cow, the shit they say about people is so mean. I'm just like, wait.

Kara Dennison (48:17.954)
Thank you.

Michelle Cooper (48:27.528)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (48:28.44)
Thank you.

Michelle Cooper (48:33.419)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (48:38.254)
Very mean.

Melissa (48:41.95)
Is that Aunt Bethany? Like talking like that online. Like, I don't even know where this comes from. I don't know. It's very, I think possibly not to make excuses for bad online behavior. They don't understand how big the internet is or how permanent, right? Um, that might not be the case with what you're talking about, but it just is like a whole space where.

Michelle Cooper (48:57.608)
Yeah. Well.

Kara Dennison (49:00.703)
or help permit. Yeah.

lissa jones (49:01.037)
Uh...

April Eckwielen (49:02.426)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (49:09.972)
Well, I think it applies across the board with all different kinds of people. That goes back to those friends, those high school friends, you know, keyboard worrying, you know, and I agree though, those boomers, they like to say some things.

Melissa (49:10.371)
I don't know, behavior's really bad.

Melissa (49:20.608)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

April Eckwielen (49:21.687)
Yeah.

Melissa (49:25.823)
Yeah, I think.

April Eckwielen (49:25.894)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (49:27.235)
think about saying that though, like, whenever anyone opens up their mouth, I'm like, you know, the thing making them look bad, it makes you look bad.

Michelle Cooper (49:27.721)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (49:33.352)
I'm gonna leave. Hmm.

Melissa (49:35.49)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (49:38.515)
So I think you're good, Michelle. Ha ha.

Melissa (49:39.222)
Yeah. You are good. You are, and I can feel the higher vibration. I know you had a hard year. I don't know, we can talk to April about, has everybody had a hard year?

Michelle Cooper (49:40.716)
Thanks.

Michelle Cooper (49:48.573)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (49:51.202)
Yes, yes, yes we have.

Melissa (49:52.554)
Yes. Is this astrologically happening to all of us? I have had like just a shit show. I have a year.

April Eckwielen (49:56.635)
It has been a fucked up year.

Michelle Cooper (49:57.601)
That whole eclipse cycle really fucked people up.

April Eckwielen (50:02.599)
UGH!

Melissa (50:04.834)
Yes. Why?

April Eckwielen (50:05.386)
Yeah, well get ready. We're going ready to go into retrograde again.

Michelle Cooper (50:05.464)
I know the big one big one April right?

Kara Dennison (50:09.497)
No!

Melissa (50:09.655)
Ugh.

April Eckwielen (50:12.45)
We're gonna start the year with it.

Melissa (50:15.83)
We are? Oh.

Kara Dennison (50:16.571)
Ugh.

April Eckwielen (50:17.226)
Yes! It goes through the new year. Mercury, yep. Yay!

Kara Dennison (50:18.923)
Mercury?

Michelle Cooper (50:20.705)
What about the major that major eclipse that in April is that gonna like really throw people off the total the full eclipse

April Eckwielen (50:26.063)
Ugh.

April Eckwielen (50:31.266)
Oh, I don't know. I haven't gotten too much into that yet. I'm just trying to get through this, this.

Michelle Cooper (50:37.272)
So we are in the line of sight for that. And so all of our like community based organizations are like freaking out and telling people to close their businesses and that it's going to be like gridlocked and with travelers and it's going to be crazy. They're making like a very, very big deal about it. So I don't remember it ever being like that before. Like I remember the last time that we had one in my area. It was like.

Melissa (50:38.275)
this year.

Kara Dennison (50:38.706)
I'm able to try to get through the day.

April Eckwielen (50:56.539)
Mmm.

Michelle Cooper (51:06.312)
I think I was in fourth or fifth grade, I don't remember. But I just don't remember it being that crazy, but everybody is freaking out.

Melissa (51:15.246)
The only thing that comes to my mind-

April Eckwielen (51:15.342)
Oh yeah, when we were up north, we were doing that.

Michelle Cooper (51:17.128)
Yeah, yeah.

Melissa (51:22.242)
The only thing that comes to my mind when I think about eclipses is like Trump staring into the sun. Remember that? Like that dummy just looking up into the sun when everyone was told not to. And I was like, see, you can't even get this right.

April Eckwielen (51:29.463)
Ha ha!

lissa jones (51:33.824)
Hahaha

Michelle Cooper (51:34.736)
Oh yeah.

Kara Dennison (51:38.359)
This is loving.

Michelle Cooper (51:42.265)
I forgot about that.

Melissa (51:45.39)
Do you guys remember that like weird like he was just like no glasses like I'm like oh well science a little science for him

April Eckwielen (51:47.502)
I remember that. Yeah. Dumbass.

Kara Dennison (51:49.948)
Yeah. Oh my god.

lissa jones (51:55.126)
I'm sorry.

Kara Dennison (51:57.05)
That's so funny. Oh, gosh.

April Eckwielen (51:57.092)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (51:58.442)
Yeah, I agree with whoever just said, I'm just trying to get through this year because has this not been the longest year? This has been like 800 years here.

Kara Dennison (52:10.647)
I feel like they just keep getting longer ever since 2020.

April Eckwielen (52:11.059)
It's yeah.

Michelle Cooper (52:11.924)
Yeah, things are so different for sure, I think. Everybody's facing so many different kinds of challenges, too.

Melissa (52:13.751)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (52:21.958)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (52:22.062)
They definitely seem less fun. Not to be a whiner, but in my Facebook group, Monica put something about like, what do you need more of? And I was like, fun, I need more fun. Yeah, this has not been a lot of fun.

Michelle Cooper (52:29.611)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (52:35.502)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (52:36.055)
Fun sounds good.

Michelle Cooper (52:37.908)
Why are we lacking fun, do you think?

Melissa (52:44.226)
I don't know, this might tie into the friendships thing, but maybe not, maybe not.

Michelle Cooper (52:44.53)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (52:47.999)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (52:51.199)
Well, I want to ask you lady something, because I know we're kind of getting up on time, but we've been talking about all these toxic breakups and friendships that aren't serving us. What is your like quality for a good friendship? Like what's a good friendship for you?

Michelle Cooper (53:08.059)
Hmm.

Kara Dennison (53:11.751)
I'll go first. Okay, so for me, I recently came into a new friendship at the beginning of this year and it's been super life giving. And the one thing that stands out to me with this friendship versus any of my other ones is open communication. Like having the tough conversations, calling each other on the bullshit.

Melissa (53:13.002)
You go first. You answer it, right?

April Eckwielen (53:14.094)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Kara Dennison (53:38.447)
And doing it all with super amounts of love, like, hey, we have each other's best interests at heart. And being able to have that communication, knowing that foundation is there without being afraid of like, oh, if I say this, is it going to end the friendship? Like, or is it going to go to someone else? Like, it's like immense amount of trust and communication. And it's been wonderful. It's been really healing, too.

Melissa (54:01.498)
trust.

April Eckwielen (54:03.426)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (54:05.356)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (54:08.322)
feel like trust is definitely at the top of the list. But I would also say, you know, maybe it goes back to trauma or people pleasing. I am not a good, I haven't always been good at measuring how trustworthy someone is. You know, I just assume like, you know, it's like that golden rule, like just treat everybody how you want to be treated and then...

Kara Dennison (54:28.159)
Okay.

Melissa (54:34.882)
That's how they'll treat you. And I think I still kind of believe that from kindergarten. Like if I just show up with bells on, it's going to work out. So I think trust is super important, but I also think like, I don't know, some other sensibility about like, are we like-minded? Do we have the same values? I guess that goes to open communication. Like really not, um, just jumping in and trusting without evidence that you should.

is probably something important, at least for me personally, to keep, like April said, like keep practicing until it's permanent, right? Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (55:15.564)
Yeah, I think the liability is important to me. Not that somebody has to be available like 24-7, but if they say they're going to be available or they say they're going to show up in some sort of way, it's super important to me that they do because I have a big letdown problem. So it affects me a lot if I feel because I get shame around the letdown. So yeah.

April Eckwielen (55:15.592)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (55:15.831)
Yeah.

Melissa (55:22.326)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (55:36.686)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (55:36.91)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (55:37.063)
Yeah.

Melissa (55:44.97)
Right, like you didn't show up for me. I'm putting these words into your mouth, but it's for me. You didn't show up for me, and now I'm, it's because I'm not good enough, or yeah.

Michelle Cooper (55:45.164)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (55:51.604)
Right, and I feel stupid or I feel tricked or there's a lot of shame around it and also like unpacked trauma probably from childhood. But yeah, so that reliability piece just like do what you say you're going to do and I'm not asking you to do anything crazy, but if you say you're going to do something like for sure you should do it for me. Yeah.

Melissa (55:59.86)
Right.

April Eckwielen (55:59.895)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (56:14.702)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (56:14.867)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (56:14.946)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (56:18.454)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (56:19.262)
And I think like everything, everything that everybody has said definitely rings true with me as well. And I think also the being able to know and be comfortable to be myself, because there's some people, I mean, there's some people and I've had it with, you know, even, even sometimes, you know, recently with, with friendships, I feel like I have to kind of like put on that.

Michelle Cooper (56:21.269)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (56:37.588)
Yeah.

Melissa (56:37.886)
Mmm.

April Eckwielen (56:48.946)
that mask, that face of whatever just because I want to, I don't know, not piss somebody off or whatnot, but having somebody who understands you for you and that you don't have to pretend around.

Melissa (57:05.131)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (57:05.311)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (57:08.884)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. That's so true. It's hard. It's hard to show up completely as yourself and feel like you can trust that somebody is just going to accept you as you are. Yeah.

Melissa (57:10.679)
Right.

Kara Dennison (57:10.819)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (57:21.31)
Yeah. And just have that understanding of not having it in the back of your head going, oh, they're judging me, they're doing this or doing that or whatever. It's just like, ah. It's like, yes, yes.

Michelle Cooper (57:35.213)
I just want to be the weirdo I am at home with you too.

Kara Dennison (57:40.887)
Yeah.

Melissa (57:41.554)
Exactly, exactly. The friends that I feel the closest to are the ones that I feel the most seen by, right? Like the friends who just really see me and they know how I am and we can laugh about it or cry about it, but where you feel seen. That's, I think that's my definition of like a real friend is that they see you, know you, they still accept you. They actually like it, no matter how weird, right?

Michelle Cooper (57:42.169)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (57:49.41)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (58:01.44)
Mm-hmm.

Kara Dennison (58:04.567)
You know.

April Eckwielen (58:09.258)
Mm hmm. You feel safe with them. You're safe. You're safe with them.

Melissa (58:12.618)
Right.

Kara Dennison (58:12.68)
You know, yeah, yeah. Let's, what do you want in a bestie?

lissa jones (58:19.268)
Oh, I would say piggybacking off of that and needing to be felt, safe and accepted. I need patience in a friendship because I go through periods where I don't have a lot to give. And I'm not necessarily a really great friend in those times. And if we can weather that storm together, great. Otherwise, I might not be the friend for you. So someone who's understanding of that.

Michelle Cooper (58:42.356)
Yeah, I go through that list even just with my work schedule, where I've kind of lost some friendships or people didn't have understanding, because I'm a wedding photographer, and you hit the fall, and I just don't even have the time to think. So I can relate to that not having anything to give at certain points.

lissa jones (58:49.472)
Yeah.

lissa jones (59:01.345)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (59:08.616)
Oh, yeah.

Kara Dennison (59:08.691)
I can relate to that too. I'm not very good at initiating, but I'm pretty good at responding to people and I've lost friendships over that too. And I appreciate that, Lissa. Thank you for saying that because I think that there are, I think we touched on this shortly, but there are periods and chapters and friendships where there is more give and more take on each side of the friendship. And...

Michelle Cooper (59:19.024)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (59:35.383)
Um, I am that friend where I disappear, but like, if you come back, I'm like, great. Like, but it's, yeah, but it's, I'm not the one where I'm constantly checking in with people and, um, but I like that you said that Lissa, like, I love the open communication and the honesty because I think you're worth it. I think that

Melissa (59:42.426)
Open Arms!

lissa jones (59:59.995)
Aww.

Kara Dennison (01:00:00.223)
the friendships like the real friendships are worth it through the good times and the bad times, you know?

Melissa (01:00:01.07)
me too.

April Eckwielen (01:00:03.682)
Mmm.

Michelle Cooper (01:00:03.872)
Mm-hmm.

lissa jones (01:00:05.996)
Yeah, for sure.

Melissa (01:00:07.882)
Yeah, I've known you listed like online for a few years. And even though we haven't spent a lot of time together, like I feel like you check one of my top priorities of people that are funny, right? Like, like, you know, you know, like I, you know, I've been on some retreats with you and I've been an online friend with you and we're talking on the podcast and it isn't, you know, it's been over a long period of time, but it hasn't been a lot of interaction, but kind of in the back of my mind is like, Oh, she's made me laugh.

Michelle Cooper (01:00:17.164)
Yeah, that's nice. Yeah.

lissa jones (01:00:20.09)
Thank you. That means a lot.

Melissa (01:00:36.234)
Right? And it's like, that's a high, that's like a high value commodity for me is like people that are funny, or at least, you know, I get their humor.

lissa jones (01:00:43.488)
I appreciate that.

Michelle Cooper (01:00:44.588)
Because you're seeking more fun. Yeah, we need more people like Lissa Yeah.

Kara Dennison (01:00:46.273)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:00:48.778)
Yeah, there you go.

Melissa (01:00:48.822)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I find humor is like at the top of my list, right?

Kara Dennison (01:00:48.983)
Thanks for watching!

lissa jones (01:00:50.602)
Yeah. Ha ha ha.

lissa jones (01:01:00.1)
here, yeah.

Kara Dennison (01:01:00.523)
Well, Lissa's is got that. Lissa is hilarious and she needs patient people at times, you know, and that's a winning combination. I like it.

April Eckwielen (01:01:05.28)
Yes.

lissa jones (01:01:06.084)
Thank you, thank you.

Melissa (01:01:08.266)
Yeah. I mean, if you ask Matt, like, I require a lot of patience and care and feeding, too. Ha ha ha.

lissa jones (01:01:14.372)
I'm going to go to bed.

Kara Dennison (01:01:14.455)
Jack would also ever eat at that time. Yeah. Jack's afraid to leave me for a night, because I won't feed myself. Alright, great.

Melissa (01:01:23.9)
Yeah, I require a lot of care. But I'm also like, I'm also a big giver, right? I provide a lot of care and I require a lot of care. It's just going to be dialed up to 11 with me. That's what you get.

Kara Dennison (01:01:36.756)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:01:40.725)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (01:01:43.67)
Yeah. Oh my gosh, girls, this has been like such an awesome conversation. And I really value all of you as friends. But I hope that anyone listening, maybe they feel a little less lonely or they feel their friendships are more normal or they just appreciate this conversation. I certainly did.

Kara Dennison (01:02:01.375)
Yeah, me too.

Michelle Cooper (01:02:02.524)
Yeah, it's nice to see that you're not alone in your perspectives or the things that you're struggling with for sure.

April Eckwielen (01:02:02.966)
Yeah, it was great.

Melissa (01:02:07.481)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:02:07.575)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (01:02:10.966)
Yeah. And this is a sensitive one because nobody wants to raise their hand and be like, I don't have enough friends or my friends are mean to me or I lost a friend or, you know, I'm 50 and I'm still like navigating the schoolyard. But it feels like that sometimes, right?

April Eckwielen (01:02:27.518)
Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Kara Dennison (01:02:27.879)
I think the lesson here is that we all kind of go through this. We all want friends. We all feel lonely when we don't have them. And we're all on our different journey of timetables of figuring this shit out. Honestly.

April Eckwielen (01:02:40.468)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (01:02:41.69)
Right, right. Yeah, it's not so much like I think of like our mothers and grandmothers, they just were friends with their next door neighbor. Maybe they didn't have the luxury of being as picky as we are. Right? Right.

Michelle Cooper (01:02:54.252)
The world was much smaller. Yeah, the world was much smaller. Yeah, I think everybody in here is from a different state, but yet we all hold friendships in different ways, which is great, right? Yeah.

Kara Dennison (01:02:54.359)
Yeah, that's true too. You get what you get.

April Eckwielen (01:02:58.487)
Yes.

Melissa (01:03:07.414)
Right, yeah. That's really, I hadn't even thought about that. Like we're all, and we've also all seen each other in person and online and we don't live in the same state. So maybe we're redefining friendship.

Kara Dennison (01:03:07.519)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:03:07.531)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:03:19.33)
Okay.

Michelle Cooper (01:03:19.948)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:03:23.074)
There's nothing wrong with that.

Melissa (01:03:24.95)
Yeah. All right, girls. Well, thanks.

Michelle Cooper (01:03:29.868)
Thank you for having us.

Kara Dennison (01:03:31.499)
Thank you.

April Eckwielen (01:03:31.71)
Yeah. Thank you.

lissa jones (01:03:31.948)
Yeah.

Kara Dennison (01:03:34.007)
Thank you for being a friend. Okay, now.

Melissa (01:03:36.152)
Yeah!

lissa jones (01:03:36.152)
Yeah!

April Eckwielen (01:03:36.558)
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Melissa (01:03:39.354)
Hey, our plan is to do some more of these. So if you think of a topic like, you know what? I really want to hop back online and talk about XYZ. I'm here for it with all of you.

Michelle Cooper (01:03:48.033)
awesome.

April Eckwielen (01:03:51.118)
Cool.

Kara Dennison (01:03:51.563)
We should do people pleasing next.

Michelle Cooper (01:03:52.874)
Yeah.

Melissa (01:03:53.65)
Yeah. It sounds like we might all have that in common. Is there like, is there like a woman on earth that's not a people pleaser though? Sometimes I, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like we've just been acculturated to be the pleasers. We've been told since we were little or even if we weren't told, because I'm not sure I was really told, I was just modeled for me, right? You just saw really quickly like, Oh, everybody likes her.

lissa jones (01:03:57.173)
Hahaha.

Kara Dennison (01:03:57.793)
We might have dealt with that.

Michelle Cooper (01:04:02.235)
Yes.

lissa jones (01:04:03.672)
Great question.

Michelle Cooper (01:04:19.816)
I think that it comes from different reasons though. Like my people pleasing came from being raised in an addict home and having to be a caretaker to my sibling and also like take care of the home and always dance around the emotional outburst or needs of my parents that were drunk a lot. And

Melissa (01:04:30.852)
Mm.

Michelle Cooper (01:04:45.052)
So I think that's a learned behavior for different reasons. So that might be something to dig into too. Like how did you become your people pleaser?

Melissa (01:04:45.518)
Hmm.

Kara Dennison (01:04:54.899)
Oh.

Melissa (01:04:55.286)
This isn't gonna show up in the recording because I'm gonna cut this when we said goodbye. But I know for me, both my parents are quite narcissistic, one even more than the other, but even my therapist is like, usually they don't end up together like this. Or they can't stay married. Mine are divorced now, but they stayed married for a long time. And it definitely was just a survival mechanism. Okay.

Michelle Cooper (01:04:55.77)
Yeah.

Michelle Cooper (01:05:03.532)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (01:05:12.603)
Yeah.

lissa jones (01:05:13.537)
I can't say married.

Melissa (01:05:22.678)
to keep things calm around here, I gotta like get home from school and like clean the house and get dinner started and make sure that these two like highly volatile people, not addicts, but unpredictable and volatile. Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:05:30.172)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Cooper (01:05:31.552)
Similar, it's a similar reasoning though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just trying to keep the piece in the home or keep it moving in a productive way. My little brother recently told me that he thinks of me more as a mother than our mother. And I'm only four years older than him. So it was like really a shocking conversation to me that he saw me in that way. I knew I was that way,

Kara Dennison (01:05:33.938)
Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:05:36.814)
Mm-hmm.

April Eckwielen (01:05:45.591)
Yep.

Michelle Cooper (01:06:02.874)
It was enlightening. Yeah, for sure.

Melissa (01:06:04.11)
Right?

Melissa (01:06:07.578)
I don't know if you heard this term in therapy, but my therapist is like, you were a parentified child. Yep, at a very young age.

Michelle Cooper (01:06:13.289)
Mm-hmm. I just posted those boundaries. Yeah, I posted these boundaries that like everybody should be putting in place and that you don't have to tolerate on holidays the other day and Parentifying was definitely on there Yeah, yes

Kara Dennison (01:06:15.322)
No, yeah.

Melissa (01:06:26.787)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa (01:06:30.091)
Yep.

Melissa (01:06:33.814)
Well, and since we've all been on podcasts before associated with them, it's a hard thing to really, my mom is listening to my podcast, right? So like how I wanna be is open and honest, but I also like, I don't need the headache of being like, oh, I had really narcissistic parents. I don't want the fallout from saying that in public.

Michelle Cooper (01:06:37.204)
Really.

Michelle Cooper (01:06:49.024)
Okay.

I have one coming up that I was just on about mental health and my background, and I did. And I am so worried when it comes out that my mom's gonna freak, even though she knows she is an alcoholic. She knows all these things. It's different when you're calling it out. Yeah, so I'm nervous about it as well.

Melissa (01:07:08.146)
Mm, right.

Melissa (01:07:13.09)
saying it.

Melissa (01:07:18.33)
Yeah, it's hard to frame your own experience. Do you guys know Anne Lamott? She's like my favorite writer of all time, but I don't know if you know her, bird by bird. But she has this thing for writers, but I guess it goes for podcasters and just life of like, if people wanted you to write kindly about them, they should have treated you better. Right?

Michelle Cooper (01:07:36.472)
Yes. Trying to hold that boundary, Melissa. Trying to hold that boundary. I did it. I said the things. So I guess we went for it, right? Yeah.

April Eckwielen (01:07:38.35)
Mm.

Kara Dennison (01:07:40.917)
Yeah.

Melissa (01:07:42.212)
Ah, ha, ha!

Melissa (01:07:49.822)
Yeah, well, I'm gonna wish you the best of luck on that. I'm gonna stop the recording so that we can say goodbye and nobody has to listen to this anymore. It'll probably be me and I don't know that anyway, but let's see, stop. Okay.

Michelle Cooper (01:07:57.224)
the

Michelle Cooper (01:08:07.104)
Yeah, thanks.

Kara Dennison (01:08:08.919)
Thank you.

lissa jones (01:08:09.08)
Yeah, thanks.