Navigating Life on Life's Terms

This episode Amy Parravano Drummond and Melissa Halpin get real in with how things have been going for them in their personal lives.

From empty- nesting to perfectionism, Amy and Melissa talk about how they are navigating life on life’s terms.

Learn more about The Kindling Project at our website: https://www.thekindlingproject.com/

...and join our Facebook group for women looking for that extra kindling to start their next big fire!

The Kindling Project - Ignite.

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Learn more about The Kindling Project at our website and join our Facebook group for women looking for that extra kindling to start their next big fire!

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Transcript

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KPP Ep 15. Melissa & Amy 
 

[00:00:00] Melissa: Hi, and welcome to the kindling project podcast! This show is where we share stories from inspiring women all over, giving us insight into the people and processes that helped them bring their kindling project to fruition. Here and over in our Facebook group, the kindling project ignite, we are all about creating a space to empower and support women with any and all of their individual aspirations. 

[00:00:25] I'm Melissa, artist, entrepreneur and creative director of Memora design agency, here with my co-host Amy, a licensed social worker, therapist, and yoga instructor.  

[00:00:35] Amy: Yay! 
 

[00:00:36] Melissa: Yay! And for today's episode, Amy and I are gonna discuss transition and going through transitions and the growth that takes place in transformation. So, hey Amy!  

[00:00:48] Amy: Hi Melissa!  

[00:00:49] Melissa: We're getting back to our roots! 

[00:00:51] Amy: I know! We're going- we're going old school today. We've focused so much on our guests, that it's- it feels good just to sit here with you and chat and going [00:01:00] back to our roots is exactly right. Um, you know, why we started this and- and how we started and everything. 

[00:01:06] So thank you for that introduction. That was very nice.  

[00:01:09] Melissa: I think it's a good point because- it's a good point in this timeline because we really didn't know what we were doing. And I think we still are trying to figure out what we're doing, but we've recorded more than a dozen episodes with amazing women who have talked about their kindling projects, whether it was overcoming a mental health crisis or starting a business or writing a book, um, opening a exercise studio. 

[00:01:33] I mean, we've got like an impressive list now in season one. But it's been a transition and when we've had some growth and I think it's a good time to look at what that means for the kindling project and just how that's overlapped with our personal lives and our professional lives, because we don't always get into it in here, but we've got a whole other life going on outside of the kindling project, right? 

[00:01:53] Amy: Yeah, we sure do. It's interesting because I know when we started this, I listened to podcasts, but I had no [00:02:00] idea what it entails, you know, and working with you and working with our sound editor. And now we have, we have somebody else on board that's helping us with this. It's such a huge learning curve and it- and it has been. One thing I know for sure, I am not a tech person that is for sure.  

[00:02:19] Melissa: Yeah.  

[00:02:19] Amy: Or an editor. Or, you know, anything along that line. And so that's why I'm really grateful we've been able to find a couple people that have helped us with this.  

[00:02:27] Melissa: I agree.  

[00:02:27] Amy: Because that part has really overwhelmed me with trying to figure that stuff out because it's just like my brain just like shuts off at a certain point and it's like, "Ahh!" There's no way around it. 

[00:02:39] You know? So speaking of transition, you and I have learned a lot about ourselves, I would say. We've learned a lot about, you know, what our- what our limits are, what our barriers are. I'll be very vulnerable and- and honest, which, I think I usually am. I don't- when did we start recording? When did we start recording podcasts? 

[00:02:58] Melissa: I believe... [00:03:00] june?  

[00:03:00] Amy: So June with guests is when we started?  

[00:03:02] Melissa: Yeah, we had recorded two podcasts, just you and I. And they sort of sat in the can for a while, while we tried to figure out, "is this a podcast?" I mean, I think it was more like learning how to use a microphone and learning how to turn on zoom, but we had recorded two conversations, uh, between ourselves and those are episode one and two kind of uh, you know, remember it was the itch? It was like we were itching to do something. We wanted- I wanted, and I think you wanted, and we sort of overlapped and agreed we wanted to do more work with women, like our different backgrounds. Like mine, with creativity and yours, with mindset, and sort of combine that into like a space or a platform where, uh, you know, we could be of service or we could give value to other women and help realize their passions or their projects or their dreams, and it felt needed, right. It felt really, maybe more of what I should be doing, and less of some of this other stuff. Do you still feel that way? 

[00:03:56] Amy: Definitely. I feel like our guests have [00:04:00] really solidified that, that there is a gap for women between the ages of, let's just say 40 to 60+, there's a gap there and it's a diverse gap, you know, from a mental health perspective, I would say part of the gap is just being heard, being validated, being told that, "okay, you know, it's okay to change careers. It's okay to leave an unhealthy marriage. It's okay to prioritize yourself. It's okay to start writing that book," you know, "it's okay to create a logo." I mean, it's a big pool of what- what it is. And I think that's been part of our challenge, is defining the kind lane project, because it's not just one thing in a lot of ways, it's many things. 

[00:04:50] And I think that that's part of the evolution of this project is that it just, it continues to evolve. 

[00:04:58] Melissa: I really like the sort of metaphor of a [00:05:00] space. It's a space that you can go to. It's not solidly defined as a thing or a topic. You know, it's not necessarily a business networking group and it's not necessarily self-help, or it's not necessarily therapy. 

[00:05:12] It's sort of this combination of things that women don't often get in their day- to -day life, they have to seek it out. And why a podcast? Why an online community. I mean, those things are one, very popular these days, but also getting together and- and having the time and carving out the time isn't easy. We have to make it available, right? 

[00:05:32] Amy: So what the challenge was though, was that, when we started these interviews and when our Facebook group started to really blow up unbeknownst to- to a lot of people, I took on three classes in my doctoral program. My middle son graduated from high school and then, you know, working full time and everything else in between. So that really overwhelmed me. I had no idea that I- I really thought I was taking two classes to be honest, but of course that I'm in [00:06:00] three. That took a lot out of me for- for a lot of different reasons. Just to give a super quick background on- on my doctoral program, I'm just gonna update people because why not? 

[00:06:10] So I've completed my coursework two years ago. It was two years ago, August. I completed my coursework and my sister passed away in July two years ago. So when- when I was supposed to really be launching into my dissertation, I really couldn't get past the- the first part, which is the prospectus, which basically outlines what my research is. 

[00:06:31] Melissa: You were grieving. Or- or trying not to grieve, trying to keep yourself busy, I would say.  

[00:06:36] Amy: Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:06:36] Melissa: Which is not a- it's- it's a common thing that we all do, but it's not necessarily a sustainable solution.  

[00:06:42] Amy: Yeah. And I didn't realize that's what I was doing. I really- as- as aware and mindful as I am, I didn't realize that's what I was doing, to be honest. 

[00:06:51] And so I had to take a semester off because I had gotten an unsatisfactory. So I came back after one semester off and they added 18 credits to the [00:07:00] program that I was in. And there was no way they were gonna grandfather me in or anything like that. So that was a huge blow like here, I'm thinking I'm wrapping things up and I'm not even- I'm still almost two years out of more coursework. Long story short, I ended up taking the three or- I took- or maybe took maybe four classes over the, whatever the timeframe is. I don't know. I nearly fell apart this summer with having four adults in the house- four young adults, a husband, everything else. What I realized with my middle son leaving and my niece leaving also is that really triggered my- it was a "delayed onset of grief," is what my therapist is telling me. And so since that time, I decided to take an official leave of absence from school. I feel so much better, like just being out of that, being out of that space, because school took up any extra time I had, it was all consumed with school. And so I'm so glad that I took that [00:08:00] leave. 

[00:08:00] I don't know what I'm gonna do with it, because I basically have all, but dissertation. I will work on myself, work on my healing and all that kind of stuff. And then I'll make a decision about it. I'm just really grateful that even though it was painful getting here, now I know that I- I have to like, trim. 

[00:08:18] It's just like what Deepa was talking about. You know, we have to get rid of that extra weight that is holding us back and I didn't realize how heavy it was. And being like, such a driven person I've been in school for four years, you know, to think of stopping and you know, yeah. A little bit of that story with school. 

[00:08:40] Melissa: Well, I'm really proud of you. It's hard to think. It's hard to put those suitcases down. It's hard to put the extra weight down. We are so conditioned to carry the load, carry the load, carry the load and- and you feel like you're a failure if you're not carrying this heavy, heavy load, I don't know why that is, because life is actually [00:09:00] smoother and easier if you set some things down along the way.  

[00:09:03] Amy: Mm-hmm yeah. 

[00:09:04] Melissa: You're allowed to, we- we just, I guess, have to give ourselves permission to do it.  

[00:09:07] Amy: I know. And it's- it's so interesting, because I've learned Melissa, that, sometimes the things that are so obvious, they're not so obvious for me. And I'm- I- I have a feeling, other people experience this.  

[00:09:20] Melissa: I mean, we all can see the answer in other people's lives, but we're completely opaque to the answer in our own life. 

[00:09:26] Amy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:27] Melissa: I don't know why that is. I mean, how many times have you sat with a friend or sat with a patient or sat with a client and it's so clear what they should do, but they don't see it. It applies to all of us, ight? 

[00:09:37] Amy: Yeah. That's where the shift is happening, and as painful as it is, it is a shift. And I have learned to embrace that because that's where I know the change is happening, even when it's the hardest time. 

[00:09:53] That's when the growth is happening. I've learned I gotta just keep pushing through it because, on the other [00:10:00] side, it's just so much better when I'm on the other side of it. So the moral, the story is not to give up, but to- to realize that it's okay to say no. I always tell people no is a full sentence. No is a full sentence. Well, saying it and doing it are two different things. Right?  

[00:10:16] Melissa: I know. Take your own advice.  

[00:10:18] Amy: I can't believe we've only been doing this since June. That's hard to believe.  

[00:10:22] Melissa: Well, recording. We've been talking about the kindling project and you know, what is it? And then defining some core values around it or building a brand around it or gathering our closest girls and workshopping it. 

[00:10:35] We have been doing that for a while longer.  

[00:10:37] Amy: Right. That's true. That's true.  

[00:10:39] Melissa: And you know, in typical Amy fashion, I probably would've started a little slower, but right in the height of your delayed onset grief and your extra classes, and your middle son graduating, and your niece moving in, and just right in the height of all of your commitments, you went on our social media [00:11:00] channel and said, "we're gonna let our first podcast out in June." 

[00:11:03] Amy: Oh yes of course I did. 

[00:11:06] Melissa: I remember I saw the Facebook live or however it was that you shared that information with the public. And I remember thinking "we are? Are we ready? Wait, don't you have a few other important things going on right now?" 

[00:11:18] Amy: Right. 

[00:11:19] Melissa: "Like, your wheels are falling off, babe!" that's how you are. And- and that's what I love about you. 

[00:11:25] It's like that super high energy upfront, like "just do all the things!"  

[00:11:29] Amy: Mm-hmm yeah.  

[00:11:31] Melissa: So, and we did it! 

[00:11:32] Amy: Yeah. Our season one is- we're well into it. Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:35] Melissa: Yeah, I think- I think you and I decided 20 episodes for season one, and this might be 17 or 18 right now that we're recording. So we're really getting to at least the end of a goal. 

[00:11:44] And, um, I'm super goal- oriented. I mean, I think, you know, I've got to- do lists and, you know, a million base camps and a million goals. You know, I go through the Kindling project base camp and I look at all those boxes we've checked, whether it was build a brand or, get a photo shoot, or [00:12:00] invite these amazing women that we admire or find a podcast editor. 

[00:12:03] Like it's a long list. We've been checking things off. It's a nice time to sit back and get, you know, how did we transition into this and what are we transitioning into next? And how did it fit into our life? I think people wanna know.  

[00:12:15] Amy: What about for you? Tell me about transition for you. What does that look like? 

[00:12:19] Melissa: I do think that we share this sort of, maybe it's a tendency to over commit or it's- it's a tendency towards perfectionism. And so I have given quite a bit of time to this that I- I didn't have it to give. I mean, I've enjoyed every minute of it and I wanna keep doing it. I wanna do it thoughtfully in a way that it's not taking time away from other relationships or other commitments or my core business, or, I think one of the things that is the first to go for me, usually. 

[00:12:45] You've known me couple decades now is self care, right? Like I haven't been going to yoga or I haven't been eating as carefully.  

[00:12:52] Amy: Right.  

[00:12:52] Melissa: Or, you know, I haven't been sleeping enough. I want to continue that, my commitment to this, but not have it take away from other commitments. [00:13:00] It's like just more about prioritizing. 

[00:13:01] It's the constant juggling that most of us do, right.  

[00:13:05] Amy: Yeah, definitely. I know. A lot of it is, "okay, what hill am I gonna die on?" You know, like, "what sword am I gonna fall on in terms of bandwidth?" Because you have a lot of moving parts with your business. It's almost like chess. You always have like different moves and different- you have different clients and the different needs of them and things like that.  

[00:13:24] Melissa: Right. I mean, it is one thing I- you know, um, I have a design agency and it's very customized work for each project and for each client. And so you're always inventing something new or trying something new or assembling a new team, whether it's building a website or building a brand or doing digital signage or doing physical signage or doing an interior space, all these things are different. 

[00:13:45] It's not a profession like the one that you're in now where every client's different, but the structure of, "oh, I'm seeing eight clients or 12 clients today. And each one gets 50 minutes of my time. And I have 10 minutes in between." The structure isn't there for me. I have to- I have [00:14:00] to enforce some structure- 

[00:14:01] Amy: right. 

[00:14:02] Melissa: On myself and on the agency, or it's really just a runaway train. The work's never done. Right. My schedule is not set.  

[00:14:08] Amy: That's challenging for a creative, I think, especially because you are like a night owl, you- you know-  

[00:14:14] Melissa: yeah. 
 

[00:14:14] Amy: If you didn't have kids and clients, you probably would do- when I know you already do a lot of your work at night anyway, that is an advantage that I have because when I'm done with my clients, I'm done. You know, I might think about it a little bit, but I will tell you, this is the first time I've really had work like that, because when I was in, in the organ and tissue procurement, or when I worked at- at Mott hospital, things like that, that was more 24/7 kind of work. 

[00:14:41] And I feel like you have that. You don't have that hard.- Hard and fast line of, this is my office. This is my space. This is like, you know, there's not a lot of- 

[00:14:52] Melissa: there's no closing the ,,office door, turning off the lights going home.  

[00:14:55] Amy: Right.  

[00:14:56] Melissa: Especially since COVID, I mean,  

[00:14:58] Amy: yes.  
 

[00:14:58] Melissa: At one point I [00:15:00] had a brick and mortar studio and so it would be, getting dressed, getting in the car, driving downtown, working in the studio and coming home, not to say that I didn't still work when I got home, and I didn't still work on the weekends, but there was some closing the door and leaving. Currently I am working from home. My husband's working from home like 80, 90% of the time. And I'm working on the design agency and now I'm working on the kindling project and you know, like yourself, I'm also raising teenagers and I'm trying to sustain a 25, 26 year marriage and all the things. 

[00:15:32] All the things. And, like we talk about here a lot in the kindling project, I turned 50 this year and I'm taking inventory of what's really important. It's really clear to me that I haven't taken enough time for self-care. I mean, I think even just being able to admit that you're not doing is probably the first step, but, you know, I wanna take better care of me. 

[00:15:52] I wanna live a long time. I wanna feel better. I wanna look better. I wanna have energy and I wanna get in touch with that fire. You know, that [00:16:00] really is what we talk about all the time in the kindling project is that tiny fire inside, each of us has, you know, that's where your passion starts. That's, you know, you get up in the morning, your tail's wagging you can't wait to get to what you have to do next. I wanna do more of that. And less of the things that I dread. Being able to say no to the things that are draining.  

[00:16:17] Amy: I know. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to- I scheduled when we would get together later in the day. So you would do, you know, your morning thing, if it was exercising or just doing something in the morning? 

[00:16:29] Because I know you're up later at night too. I'll say like, going through my shift now, whatever that is, whatever that looks like, don't let it get to that point. Don't let it get to that point. Sometimes things are so obvious. They're not obvious for when we're actually in it. Like for me, it was obvious that school was a huge- wasn't just time. 

[00:16:51] It was my mental, it- it consumed because it was like, "oh my gosh research and all this kind of stuff." And then thinking, "oh my gosh, [00:17:00] then," you know, "I wanna be at a national level of as an educator or as an expert," and things like that. And I'm not saying that that's going to happen, but I know it's not gonna happen now. 

[00:17:10] So I say to you, dear friend, what is it gonna take for you to say, "this is- these are my priorities." Like I often say, it's the mental, physical, and emotion- or no, physical, emotional, and spiritual those components. And I can tell you my components I'm deficient in, what will it take for you? Do you think, to say "what I've done today in this is enough," or "I'm shutting the door on this for now." 

[00:17:37] I know you've gotten better at some hard stops, but do you know what- you know what I'm saying?  

[00:17:42] Melissa: Oh, I do. I don't often give myself permission to stop working or to say no, or to prioritize myself and it shows, I mean, it shows, I feel it, the people around me feel it, it's not a great example to, um, set for your kids and I'm [00:18:00] working on it. 

[00:18:00] And sometimes I tell them, you know, they get tired of me always working, or me working on the weekends. I'm working on it. You know, I guess we're all work in progress, right?  

[00:18:08] Amy: Yeah, we are. And that's the vulnerable part that I'm talking about, you know. The vulnerable part, it's hard for us as women. I think I can speak for both of us to be vulnerable and to say, no, I guess where I'm going with it, Melissa, is that what I realize though, stopping means having to deal with what's in front of me. Taking away school, taking away other, uh, like kids in the house and stuff like that. Now I'm faced to deal with myself.  

[00:18:38] Melissa: Right.  

[00:18:38] Amy: And that is a scary thing to do at times. What I've realized is that I was doing all this busy stuff, but it's okay. It was- it was life stuff. 

[00:18:48] Melissa: Mm-hmm .  

[00:18:49] Amy: But now that I'm taking those things away. Oh gosh. Now I really have to deal with my sister's passing. I don't know where that's gonna land. I don't know how it's gonna fall. I don't know. I have [00:19:00] no idea what that is really gonna look like.  

[00:19:02] Melissa: I'm not sure that everybody knows, but you said to me on Friday, and I thought about it all weekend, was, that it hit you, that you're at an age where your mother and your sister at that age had already passed.  

[00:19:15] Amy: Yeah. Yup. 

[00:19:16] Melissa: Because you lost both of the most important women in your life at super young ages.  

[00:19:21] Amy: Mm-hmm yeah.  

[00:19:22] Melissa: Early fifties is, I mean, not uncommon, but certainly not- it's not the average. You have to carry that with you as a reality of, you know, my mom and my sister weren't here, it's almost like you're getting extra time on some other alternate timeline. 

[00:19:36] And I thought about that all week. My- my grandmother lived to be 85 and my mom is currently 70. And so I haven't lost those pivotal characters early. So I don't often think about myself or my own life being cut short. You're having an experience that I don't- I haven't had, but I- I'm sure lots of women have had. 

[00:19:53] Amy: It's true because you know, I've probably mentioned this before. I've been around a lot of death and dying, you know, [00:20:00] I've been around hundreds and hundreds of- of families, you know, which is, is truly an honor in a lot of ways. But I started thinking about my own death, you know, more recently, my mom was 54. My sister was 52 when they passed and I'm 51. 

[00:20:16] I started thinking like, "oh my gosh, like I'm at that age," you know? And luckily I go to the doctors, I get checkups. I've had biopsies, I'm Johnny on the spot with all things help. But then again, you know, that's just the luck of the draw. I mean, who knows for the first time I started thinking about my own demise and I don't know if demise is the right word. 

[00:20:38] I don't mean to sound so dramatic. It's like, what am I- what am I doing with my time? You know?  

[00:20:43] Melissa: Right.  

[00:20:44] Amy: What am I doing with my time? And I think that's how I got the- the most clarity with school, at least letting that go. Because it's like, no, I wanna cultivate my marriage. I wanna spend time with my husband. You know, I wanna travel. I wanna see things. I, you know, I'll do all those things that I did when I was younger. 

[00:20:59] Melissa: I [00:21:00] guess these are midlife questions for a lot of people. I know I'm having some of them too. For me a lot of it is how am I expending my creative energy or my creative output in this world? 

[00:21:09] Amy: Okay. 
 

[00:21:09] Melissa: I think we referenced her twice now, already, but you know, Deepa talked about how she was really shiny and bright at one point. And then she didn't. And I feel like what I thought of when she said that was that, I had this highly creative output at one point where I just saw solutions and colors and patterns and answers to- to everything I looked at. And I've been spending that energy in corporate life, right. Building a business and designing brands or building websites or exhibits or making an event or an interior for somebody. And I have really enjoyed that work and I've been financially rewarded for that work and people tell me, you know, I get- I get positive feedback from the universe. 

[00:21:53] "You're good at this" or "I want you to do more of this for me,"  

[00:21:56] Amy: Because you are good. 

[00:21:56] Melissa: And it's not that any of us have a limited amount of light or a [00:22:00] limited amount of creativity, but we do have a limited amount of time. We're all going to run out of time, whether it's at 54 or 94, and I'm just sort of asking myself, how am I spending the time? 

[00:22:12] And- and- and where am I putting the energy and what is my creative output? And the kindling project was a bit of an answer to that because I wanted to spend more time with like-minded women. And I- I had this vision of, if I pour into this, if I pour my creativity into this, the outcome will be myself and a multiplier of myself. 

[00:22:30] Like all these other women are gonna experience their creative output or their projects or their dreams. And I still wanna do that, but sometimes I just wanna paint. Sometimes I just wanna go in my basement studio and make paintings by myself and not have to answer to anybody.  

[00:22:45] Amy: Right.  

[00:22:46] Melissa: And not be responsible for anybody else's happiness. Why is it that, "oh, okay. I'm not gonna spend all the creative energy necessarily on causes or clients or categories that I'm not passionate about, but I'm still gonna spend all my [00:23:00] creative energy on somebody else. I'll just pick women or I'll pick some- you know, I'll pick something I love a little bit more." Like when does it get to just me? 

[00:23:07] Amy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:08] Melissa: That's where I'm at right now of- I have, um, been painting a little bit. I mean, nothing I would say is like a finished canvas or a new style or, you know, I haven't landed on anything, but I've been playing with art just once in a while here, when I get an hour or two, usually when I can't sleep. It's really, really clear to me that I've neglected that artist inside. 

[00:23:28] Amy: Yeah.  

[00:23:28] Melissa: Very neglected. I might be running outta time. We're all running out of time.  

[00:23:31] Amy: Well, and I don't wanna be like a doomsday prepper, because it's like, "oh my gosh, we don't-" but what I would hope you would take away from this, is, this is where you wanna shift your priority. You know, not so much about the time, but just about "where are my priorities and how do I shift those?" 

[00:23:49] you know, because that's what got your juices flowing to begin with, that creative, that artist inside. That was a hard conclusion for me to come to more recently is, I wanna be this [00:24:00] person for everybody else. I wanna have light it ups with Amy. I wanna shine for everybody, but wait a minute. My light is like super dim and the battery and the- the life bulb is like not working. And that's a hard place to come to. But, once arriving upon this place, it's like, okay, now there's more clarity. So I say to you, yeah, you- you gotta like shut things out and go down and work on your art and be okay with that. Be okay with giving back to yourself, because this is what we're telling everybody else to do, right? 

[00:24:36] Melissa: Right. I mean, that's, I think one of the clearest messages, is, we set out to empower or to create space for others. And here we are a few months in it's really clear we maybe should start with us.  

[00:24:51] Amy: Absolutely. Don't you feel like it's ongoing, like us as individuals?  

[00:24:55] Melissa: Yep. I do. And I do think there's something really rewarding about community [00:25:00] and there is something self-fulfilling, you know, and self-rewarding or actualizing to do things for others. You know, there's ebbs and flow.  

[00:25:07] Amy: Well, we do- we've been doing for others, our entire professional lives.  

[00:25:11] Melissa: Right. It is in our nature. Both of us. 

[00:25:14] Amy: It is. And outside of our professionalism, I mean, this is just what- these are the kind of people that we are. And- and who knows when, you know, when these times come up, there's never a good time to schedule, you know, emotional breakdown. 

[00:25:29] Not that that's what I've had or, you know, divorce. Or surgery.  

[00:25:34] Melissa: Right.  

[00:25:34] Amy: You know, there's never like perfect times to do all of these things.  

[00:25:37] Melissa: No, there's never a perfect time for anything. If it's a priority, it has to get scheduled in and come hell or high water, or it won't, you know, it's just like the exercise thing. 

[00:25:45] I know you've been a yoga teacher all these years, and you're really good about, you go to your bar classes in the morning, ever since I've known you, whether it was walking, or super slow or yoga, you were scheduling it in some kind of physical exercise. 

[00:25:59] Amy: Mm-hmm mm-hmm . [00:26:00]  

[00:26:00] Melissa: And I have been a very, uh, intermittent exerciser, you know, I'll go to yoga for 30 days or I'll have a personal coach for six months, but then I take a year off. Right? I established a regular habit of exercising and I want, and I, haven't also established a regular habit of art- making for nobody else. And for no other reason, than just the sake of art- making, but I want to, and so if you have that itch or you have that knocking or you have that inkling, that there's something you should be doing or you wanna be doing and you're not doing, you know, how can I tell others to answer that and to put kindling on that? If I'm not doing it for me? 

[00:26:40] Amy: I love you being so vulnerable. I mean, here's the thing, we have to get out of our own way. I don't know, at what point in our lives, Melissa, that's gonna change, but I think that's why we have, you know, I say, God, people may say the universe, Allah, Budda, whoever it is. That's why I feel like we're in this [00:27:00] space together to- as Monica- our friend Monica says, "we have to hold up the mirror for one another." 

[00:27:05] You support each other along the way, you know, to- to support each other and say,"it is time now to really prioritize this," and I think it's really hard when you are an overachiever and when you are a perfectionist, because it's like, "well, if I'm gonna exercise, it's gotta be at least seven days a week and it's gotta be at least an hour with a trainer." 

[00:27:25] Melissa: *laughing* yeah.  

[00:27:27] Amy: You know, it can't just be like, throwing on your tennis shoes and doing a quick walk around the block. It's gotta be a whole thing. And I've learned that, we have to- we have to like, carve that time because nobody else will do it for us. It doesn't matter if you have the most fabulous or flawed or no spouse or whatever, we have to do it for ourselves. 

[00:27:47] Melissa: And you're right. And you have to take baby steps and you have to be okay with less than perfect. You know, I'm terrible at that. This weekend- 

[00:27:54] Amy: I was like, I could just see you're like just, "ahh!",  

[00:27:58] Melissa: Yeah. I mean, this [00:28:00] weekend- over the weekend, I got up early and I was gonna go to the art fair, but it was kind gray and drizzly. And so I canceled going to the art fair with, um, my mom and my mother-in-law, my good friend. 

[00:28:09] And then like I had this extra, like handful of hours on my time. And so I ended up making some blueberry scones. And I used a mix like that was in the pantry. And then I shared a picture of them on social media and a bunch of people were like, "oh my God, can I come over and get one?" Or "those look great!" 

[00:28:22] And I was like, "oh, it's just a box." It's never enough. I always have to be like, "well, it was just a box ,"or, you know, "they're- they're kind of dry." Or, I just have that- that's one of my weights on my back or one of my suitcases that I need to put down, is , just let everything be enough. When is it enough? And I do see, because I have a 17 year old and a 13 year old, "listen, Melissa, this is not great for the people around you."  

[00:28:45] Amy: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:46] Melissa: It's really not. My beautiful daughter, you know, of course it's been modeled for her. She's starting to, um, have that same level of, it's never enough.  

[00:28:56] Amy: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:28:56] Melissa: And I can see it and I'm- I feel responsible for [00:29:00] it. She's doing this mural project in the basement. It's been going on all summer. It's a saga, it's these huge four foot by six foot panels that are gonna be installed in the high school before she graduates. And over the weekend yesterday, in fact, she had, um, three other seniors in highschool over here working on 'em and then at the end of the night, I was like, "well, oh, this was great. You finally got some help. Like these kids had been flaking out and not showing up. And you know, these girls showed up for you today and you guys were down there for five hours." And she was like, "yeah, but I'm gonna have to redo it."  

[00:29:27] Amy: Oh gosh.  

[00:29:28] Melissa: And I just heard Melissa in there. I heard myself and -, I just looked at her and I just thought, oh God, those moments in life where you get a little clarity of like, it's not just me that needs to be okay. I have to be okay. So she can be okay. 

[00:29:45] Amy: Well, but let me say this: remember, she has her path too, but you can- here's the thing that I've learned about parenting, it's never too late to start modeling something.  

[00:29:55] Melissa: Right.  

[00:29:56] Amy: It's never too late to pivot and say, "you know what, [00:30:00] that really wasn't working. This is what I'm gonna start doing." And you- you can tell them that through your actions, through your words.  

[00:30:08] Melissa: Exactly. And I wanna have a whole conversation in words. Because you know, 11 o'clock at night on a school night is not the time. But I wanna sit down with her and say, "Hey, I heard myself in there. You know, that makes for a great creative director. You know, never being done and always seeing a new possibility, and always making things better, or, it can be rewarding. It can be a strength, people admire it, but you know, be careful about yourself and- and be careful of others because it- it can also be a curse, right. It can also be an addiction." I think perfectionism might actually sort of- I think it's cousins with addiction. 

[00:30:44] It's very easy to get caught up in that sort of, "it's never done and I gotta keep doing it, and I gotta go back to it, and I gotta get up at four in the morning and think about it some more." I don't know what the language is for that, but I just wanna tell her, you know, "be careful, it's one thing to want those murals to be perfect. And I understand that you're [00:31:00] leaving a mark somewhere and super important to you. And it's a reflection of you. There's a point where it's enough." 

[00:31:05] Amy: Right. And- and also their other- their work is important too.  

[00:31:09] Melissa: You can't undo it. I mean, you can- I undo, people's work. Some of my dearest, dearest friends have worked for me and I have undone their work, and they don't love it. *laughing* you know, I mean, they do not love it. And I have gotten some pushback. It isn't because I don't love them to pieces. It's my own- 

[00:31:28] Amy: Yeah. I mean, well, there is something to be said for being the Creative Director. You know, you're the creative director for a reason, but then there's that fine line where, "wait a minute, everybody just hold on here." you gotta let those other lights shine because then you're taking away from their talents. And that's one of the things I always say. I wanna surround myself with other women who are smarter than me, who know better in these areas because that's gonna lift- that's not gonna just elevate me. It's gonna elevate everybody around. 

[00:31:58] Melissa: Yeah.  

[00:31:59] Amy: I really [00:32:00] appreciate how you brought that in about the addiction. I don't know. I'll have to look into that. I could see where that would draw people in though. Then it gets into this whole thing of control, micromanaging, and all of this stuff. 

[00:32:13] Melissa: I don't- I don't know the technical terms about it, but I just have a sense that it's an -ism. They're born either out of trauma or out of some kind of, taking control, or trying to be in control, or trying to, you know, make everybody okay, or right. It's a coping mechanism. I think perfectionism- obviously you get more reward in life for being a perfectionist than you do for being an alcoholic. Right. It's an -ism that gets reinforced. You get positive reinforcement, but that's sort of what I wanted to say to my daughter of, "be careful." Like this can spiral out of control. You can find yourself, you know, 30 days behind on sleep, or you can find yourself having hurt somebody else's feelings because you didn't value their contribution. You know, there- there's a downside. [00:33:00]  

[00:33:00] Amy: Right, right.  

[00:33:01] Melissa: Anyway, that's a little bit of my vulnerability today. 

[00:33:03] Amy: That's pretty significant. I'm- I'm so glad you shared that because I have a feeling there's a lot of people that can relate to that, you know, in terms of, listen, we all are a work in progress. I don't have to be that person that has all the answers anymore. I don't have to be that person that comes across as perfect or perfectly together, things like that. 

[00:33:26] I've- I've let that go because I know that I am exactly the way I'm supposed to be in this moment. I know that's cliche, but I really do believe that. And- and, you know, we have to be willing at some point to say, "this is enough. What I'm bringing to the table and this moment is enough." And that's what we just have to keep working towards, you know, and giving ourself grace. I really appreciate your vulnerability because it- it reminds me of why I just adore you so much and why we compliment one [00:34:00] another in a lot of ways, because we bring different skills to the table, but we are also- we also have a lot of similar feelings and emotions and things like that. 

[00:34:08] We're both really sensitive, and we feel things more intensely. I know that we both want to keep creating this space for the women with the kindling project. But we also have to remind ourselves that we have to keep the space for ourselves as well. However that space comes, we know it's fluid. That's the thing, that things are- 

[00:34:28] Melissa: Absolutely. 

[00:34:29] Amy: You know, there's ebbs and flows. And we know that we have something really good here. We don't know exactly what it is because we're still- it's still evolving. We have a lot more clarity than we did a year ago, that's for sure. 

[00:34:40] Melissa: We do. And I think it's a good time to- to say, "okay, what has the transition into the kindling project looked like? And what is the transition into the next phase? The next episode? The next season? You know, are we gonna do a live event? Are we gonna do an online event?" I mean, the vehicles are really not- I'm sort of agnostic about the vehicles. I [00:35:00] didn't wake up one day because all I wanted was a podcast. It's just a vehicle, right?  

[00:35:05] Amy: Right.  

[00:35:05] Melissa: And if- if the vehicle is a retreat or a workbook or a course, uh- you know, I think that we're both pretty fluid about how it evolves. And I would really like to engage the women that have joined our community, our friends, the- the women that find us and- and need this to tell us, what is the most useful vehicle for you? 

[00:35:25] Amy: Yeah, that's a really good- that's a good question. Um, I know we've put surveys out.  

[00:35:31] Melissa: We're trying to "get better," I guess, in quotes at social media, we've engaged a young woman to work on our podcast and work on our social media with us, but it's still just a vehicle for us. It's not a passion. I think that's where a lot of women are. And- and it's certainly easier to pull out your phone than it is to commit to an event on Thursday night at seven. So I think we're trying to meet ourselves where we are, and we're trying to meet the women in our community where they are.  

[00:35:54] Amy: Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's what we're- we're hopeful for. So thanks so much for- [00:36:00] for being vulnerable here.  

[00:36:01] Melissa: You too. I know it's been a rough time for you.  

[00:36:03] Amy: It's- it's a new day. We've got good things ahead to look forward to. So, you know, I just wanna say thanks so much for listening to today's episode, give us a rating, subscribe on whatever platform you listen to, to be notified when there is a new episode. Be sure to join our online community of the kindling project ignite on Facebook. The link is in our show notes below. Come bring your ideas, goals, and questions to the group where we can all help one another get on the path to success, no matter where you are in the process of your kindling project, there's a place for you among the rest of the women. Thank you again, Melissa. 

[00:36:41] Melissa: Thanks Amy! 

[00:36:42] Amy: I'll see you next time! 

[00:36:43] Melissa: Bye bye.  

[00:36:44] Amy: Bye bye!